Lost my job in early 2023. Couldn't find anything (25 years of exp, director of engineering managerial/technical type, great at what i do by past coworkers/bosses admission). By EOY I had to sell my house, figured I could use the (significant) profits to buy time or I could travel and make the time a little more enjoyable, so I set out to explore most of Europe thinking, well I'll for sure find a job before I run out of money! Another year went by, hundreds of applications, no job. Back home now, living in rather inadequate accommodations thinking "any day now!" Applied to ~400 jobs in the last 1.5 months (because at this point I'm applying to everything that moves), 3 interviews, 3 ghostings. Everyone's rejecting for real shitty reasons, I could go on for a bit about that.
1) as the child of a parent who was a smart, hard working accountant/financial analyst who was out of work for 2 long stretches in my youth, I have learned when you lose your job, you do not fuck around — you attack it with the same urgency as if the house was on fire as in immediately; 2) after 25 years, you’ve got to have some network — swallow your pride and use them.
I have been there, and I saw my father — there is nothing good about it. You have my sympathy and I wish you the best.
Applying to 400 jobs is apparently not enough sense of urgency, got it. It's surely American laziness that's the problem and not the infinite slave labor they're competing with.
I've done a few rounds of CV edits and reviews early on, it hasn't helped. It's worth noting that the initial CV I had was one where I never had trouble finding work with.
Edit: misunderstood "referrals" for "references" so edited my reply out. No, I've never asked for referrals from past colleagues.
Not having LinkedIn is ruining your chances. Candidates without a LinkedIn are going to come across as a scam in the very least, 90% of the time your application will just get tossed if you can't be found on LI.
Pretty much this. I know lot of people hate Linkedin but the fact is that if you are a job candidate and have little to no Linkedin, it's a huge potential red flag in today's world. Lot of scammers, overemployeds/moonlighters out there.
When I was moonlighting LinkedIn didn’t affect me. Every time I applied/interviewed and got hired for a w2 job, I just left my last non moonlighting employer on there, and checked the “please don’t contact current employer” checkbox. I hadn’t worked there in over a year.
Didn’t my new employer want me to update my LinkedIn? That never came up, but if it would have I would have delayed. Why should I support their business model.
At its most basic, this is a cult of qualification which no longer provides real value, it fails for a number of reasons I won't get into here.
When you disqualify arbitrarily, and can't find anyone because of that, its your fault for disqualifying everyone, not the market's fault for not having the ballerina that doesn't exist.
Want a programmer in a language thats only 10 years old with 15 years of direct experience? You aren't going to find it even when the creator of that language applies.
You pay to have the work done. That is the only legitimate requirement for hiring someone and remaining employed, and you can't go and change the requirements later when they show they can do more. Doesn't matter if they moonlight, are overemployed etc. That view to disqualify such people are in fact monopolistic practices designed to disenfranchise wages that are already low and distorted because of money-printing, they are not red-flags.
Its like the flawed type of thinking that "We need someone to do this work, but this guy is so overqualified he'll leave first chance; so we won't hire anyone".
You hire to have a job done. You don't get to be an arbitrary slave master.
The moment you lose sight of this is the moment you ignore your immediate needs, and drive your company on a path towards failure, and if its a consolidated large company, that failure and bad decisionmaking will impact a lot more people because of the centralization/concentration.
Financial engineering can decouple the need for immediate action, but the tradeoff is that the risk of not doing things you should have done becomes far greater to your long-term sustainability, and its completely invisible. There is no place for deception and coercion in the hiring process. If the job doesn't exist, don't jam communication channels. Jamming channels is tortuous interference.
The point is that when you have 100 Resumes to sort through for 1 role, you will have to use process of elimination. In 2025, with AI/scams/bots/moonlighters, Linkedin Profile is a good way to sort through. I am not saying having Linkedin is the only thing that matters but when there is so much noise, you need to stand out especially as a real human.
Sure, there is naturally a sieving process in any hiring, and the issue of AI/scams/bots is simple to solve because it was solved before AI was around before people got lazy. Fraud and misrepresentation isn't a new thing or even "being unsolve-able except in just one way, your chosen route".
The answer is simple...
Require that they come in and show up physically to the office to verify their CV/application/Driver's License, and at that time since there will be cost on the business side, also cross-check if they fit other open positions you have, or if they are interested in hearing about other positions (the answer will almost certainly be yes). Rapidly promoting from within naturally bubbles the competent to positions without a lot of external risk like what you've described.
This is how you build a resilient pipeline of talent, and vet the soft skills people who would be good at the job that you'll never find through an interview except by moonshot chance. When you structure it from the get-go to exclude excessively and use bad indicators, you have bad data in and get bad outcomes out.
> LinkedIn Profile is a good way to sort through.
Its not, there are plenty of fake LinkedIn Profiles. You can't stand out as a real human when you have pigeonholed everyone into a circular peg and set the sieve requirements to a square peg. Forcing people to all go through a online centralized portal, even when they show up in person, is what promotes these perverse incentives. Not rocket science.
As a business you can do a lot to solve problems, and there's no way you can stand out as a human among the noise of digital artifacts where bots mimic real humans in the same digital environment. Go physical.
I've friends who are executives that do hiring, their main complaints were we've tried to hire people for X positions, and our top 10 candidates were all fake, we spent months on this with numerous interviews (cost) and have to start all over from scratch.
I pointed out the answer is rather stupid simple. Go old school verify the inputs are real at the beginning of the process, not at the end after you sunk all those costs. That's what they've been doing since then and it works.
Finding the right talent is a cost you have to pay that you can't push off on other businesses through use of products or services where that business may lie/misrepresent because each business is different, and if you depend upon that one pipeline for talent they can and will eventually cause issues where you can't find talent.
The attitude you seem to have mirrors the same things I see in people who simply don't want to pay the cost to get competent people, and by extension don't want to actually be in business.
Also, conditions worsen when you spoil an entire labor pool over decades through bad management in consolidated hands, it gets harder and costlier to find qualified labor. Its the nature of ponzi; costs go up unti outflows exceed inflows.
If you don't get ahead of the labor crunch, it will crush you, and most competent people given the adverse circumstances in hiring are now retraining resulting in brain-drain, a hollowing out and watering down of the competency in the labor pool. What happens when you can't find qualified people at any cost because your practices drove them to other sectors. They won't come back because they wrote it off as a bad investment. Its psychologically sticky.
People always have a choice, even when others try to make it so they don't.
In addition to possibly being a scammer, some people found my resume to be less believable without a linkedin profile. One interviewer thought I was lying about my previous job title.
Why would it matter what your previous job title was? Why would I care if your previous job title was ‘Grand Vizier of Khyrgistan’? Can you do the job I want you to do now?
If your previous job title was "Doer of a Thing" then a prospective employer is more likely to consider you for a job doing the same (or similar) thing, as it shows you have prior experience doing a thing.
Agree with this, unfortunately. I have a coworker who routinely calls people without linkedins "sketchy" and obsessively looks everyone else, vendors, functional area colleagues, etc up on linkedin. I didn't have a very fleshed out linkedin myself because I value privacy and was surprised how biased some people are about it. I've also seen candidates who have otherwise passed interview panels get veto'd because the dates on their linkedins don't match their CVs.
I don’t have a LinkedIn and it has impaired my job hunts in the past but I always worry that creating one now (without the references of colleagues from decades of past work) would look worse than not having one?
Nah that’s not a thing. Get involved spend an afternoon setting it up and then it will suggest a bunch of people you’ve probably worked with in the past. They’ll be happy to connect and then it’s a good point to catch up and drop the “I’m in the market”.
If anybody used to enjoy working with you and they know of something it, should be easy enough from then on.
Do people still do endorsements on LinkedIn? There was an initial flurry when that "feature" launched but I haven't been endorsed for anything for I think the past decade. Really the only things I do on LinkedIn are update my job history and accept connections from coworkers.
Imho, anything past where you've worked on LinkedIn is a waste of time.
And arguably even a negative signal. Productive people have jobs to do instead of grinding Monopoly karma. Yes, this absolutely includes LinkedIn thought leadership.
I know MS and recruiters love to push the 'it matters' line, but I'd ask the reader -- who would you rather hire: someone who wow'd in an interview or someone with LinkedIn flair?
> who would you rather hire: someone who wow'd in an interview or someone with LinkedIn flair?
Who would you rather interview: someone who has a great resume, and a strong LinkedIn profile, and connections to a strong peer community who can endorse them, or a faceless rando that shows up in your inbox with a PDF, amongst thousands of others, with zero referrals?
I'm not endorsing LI grind -- I too hate it, but ignore at your own peril. OP seems to be in a rather precarious situation, so maybe it would help being a bit less dogmatic.
> who would you rather hire: someone who wow'd in an interview or someone with LinkedIn flair?
Wrong question. This is not about the hiring stage.
Who would I rather move on to a phone screen: someone with an empty or nonexistent linkedin profile, or someone with a profile which matches their resume and has many connections to other people who worked at the same companies?
While I hate to have to say it is the latter, that's where we are today with AI-generated fake resumes.
I have 344 resumes left to review tonight. Those that don't match their linkedin profile history have no chance (unless they are a direct colleague referral).
As I take a break on friday night from reading through an endless pile of resumes for a role I'm hiring...
I would suggest creating the linkedin profile but be sure to fully populate the job descriptions for each job (or as far back as you care to go) and spend some time looking up past colleagues from each one and send them invites to connect.
I'm finding that a completely blank linkedin profile (listing only companies but zero detail) is a bigger red flag than not having a linkedin profile.
But having a profile with job description info and a network of connections from each job adds credibility. When a resume looks borderline suspicious, I dig through the persons connections in linkedin to see if it looks like they really worked at each of those places. Even better if I find any shared connections, which is a stronger signal that I'm looking at a real person not an AI bot.
Also, building that network of connections can be a source of job leads on its own.
Man, for 15 years I’ve been working on projects that are not LinkedIn friendly. For example, online casinos where my coworkers all have pseudonyms. Or taking 1-2 years to work on a personal project that fizzles out. Not to menion, surfing for 2 years.
I'm in a terrible position for when I need to find a normal job, and comments like this don't let me forget it!
It is better to have 1 than not. I highly recommend you set it up now. Put a real picture. Too much noise these days and without a Linkedin Profile, lot of employers are not even going to look at you. Just stating facts.
not a recruiter: I have never felt that recruiters pay attention to linkedin references specifically.
You can also make one, add people, and then ask for a few references. "I just finally made a linkedin in 2025 on a lark" is a perfectly cromulent icebreaker/reason to ask.
Seconding. These days I will rarely talk to anyone without a verified LinkedIn or other presence like a clearly inhabited GitHub (and I’m not looking for hyperactivity by any means)
But why? Those things are easy to game, and speaking personally, I don't have an online software development presence like Github because I don't spend my off time working on anything I feel is worth sharing.
If i’m hiring for eng director in my industry I'm expecting at least a few 2nd/3rd common connections so i can backchannel. Without that i assume its someone who hasnt gotten along with anyone at beast or a scammer at worst
Numbers. I’ve read thousands of resumes over the past few months, screened dozens of applicants, and experienced a wide variety of weirdness and fakes both in resumes and on screen calls. Please note that I’m talking about raw “application box resumes”. Referrals and other semi-vetted sources don’t get this level of scrutiny.
I gave two examples of secondary sources, but what I’m really getting at here is that the numbers and noise are so, so high now (not to mention staffing firm fronts and foreign actors) that I usually need more signal than a solid-looking resume before investing even 30’ in a screening call.
Well, that sucks. The one thing I hate about Linked in is being up-rated on my skills by people who barely know what I do and certainly have never worked with me in any capacity or even discussed my work in any sense beyond "What do you do for a living?".
From where I sit, it's a tool for marketers and recruiters to gather data and it's otherwise completely useless.
One of my pet peeves are people who don’t understand what I call “gravity problems”. You may not like gravity. But that doesn’t mean you jump off of a 30 story building and hope to survive.
Whether I like LinkedIn or not is completely irrelevant. I play the game, add connections, post a few banal “Thought Leadership” posts, ask for recommendations, etc.
My remote job at BigTech fell into my lap in mid 2020 and at 46 because an internal recruiter reached out to me, I got my next job two years ago within a week after I started looking because of targeted LinkedIn outreach. My current job also fell into my lap two weeks after I started looking because an internal recruiter reached out to me.
It does absolutely no good being good at your job if no one knows it.
I think even in the current job market, someone would give me a job or a contract relatively quickly if I needed one based on my network, LinkedIn profile, and positive impressions I’ve made in my niche over the past 7 years.
How else would someone know about me and how would I connect with them? I can change my status to “Open to Work” and have 1200 people see it My specific niche is strategy consulting along with hands on keyboard work for smaller projects and before that, I was hired at 3 separate companies by a new to the company director/CTO to lead initiatives. At that level it’s all about knowing how to “influence” and communicate.
I’m not bragging, I’m old. I should have that type of experience and network.
I think that's the key difference. For strategy folks, it makes sense to demonstrate this kind of work through that kind of channel. But LinkedIn posts aren't relevant for non-networking roles.
The parent poster has “25 years of exp, director of engineering managerial/technical type”. He should be selling himself as a strategy person. In today’s market you have to be networking regardless especially for remote work. Even before I started doing the BS influencer mess, two of my last three jobs were based on internal recruiters reaching out to me.
So exactly how was a company in Seattle going to find out about me in Atlanta if not through LinkedIn to offer me a remote job paying 50% more than i was making? How were the next two companies where I worked remotely going to know anything about me?
Referrals are the only way right now. The front door is broken everywhere. I spent 4 years off and I managed to come back, but only referrals were worthwhile in getting me roles worth anything
In 2025 it basically means you're likely a bot/scammer. LinkedIn provides the social proof that at least you're a real person, with real business connections. It's sadly not optional.
I agree that it's not optional; in my book, a company mandating association with the degenerate cesspool that is LinkedIn as entry criteria for employment consideration is simply a non-starter, full stop.
If I disclose an email address that's directly traceable to my current employer---or even one provided to me by professional organizations I'm registered with---as adequate "social proof" (whatever that means) that I'm not "likely a bot/scammer", and a company's hiring manager is too blind to see the signal, then I'd write that off as a hidden trap passively dodged with confident relief.
Absolutely stupid advice for people who actually look for a job. You're participating in a social game, with well-defined signalling functions. If you'd like to actually have a positive outcome, you'll need to make use of the signalling functions commonly recognized, even if you don't like them.
(Plus, opting out of a commonly accepted path with the reason that you personally think other signals are as good and the other side is just too blind to see them sends a large amount of information about your ability to collaborate in larger teams)
You do you. There are jobs where you can get away with this, there are people with networks that allow them to play different games. But as advice to job seekers, it's actively detrimental.
> Hiring managers check you on LinkedIn 100 percent of the time.
YMMV. White collar work here follows connections and introductions - nearly exclusively. A few of my clients might have poked around Linkedin in passing but most have never used it.
As an aside, I deleted my LI because I've never had a legit contact thru it, only spam.
When I was a hiring manager (it's been a number of years) I always checked LI for applicants which looked interesting on "paper" but which had not come through a trusted source such as coworker from the past or present that I had respect for (both their technical skills and their willingness to be objective about others even if their observations were negative).
My primary reason for this was that unfortunately some resumes seem to include quite of bit of creative writing -- creativity which the applicant could bet only I, and my company, would see. If, however, the applicant had posted similar claims about past jobs on LI, it was public for all to see so somewhat likely to be less "creative" as most people find it embarrassing to get _caught_ claiming credit for work that someone else did or giving an overblown explanation of the import of their work. This is, of course, not 100% reliable as I've seen coworkers and past employees posting on LI claiming things they were "responsible for" or "implemented" when, in fact, they only had a tiny role (or, occasionally, even no discernible role) in.
Also, if I happened to notice a "connection" that I also knew, I could potentially ask them about the applicant (using due care to make sure that the applicant wouldn't be "outed" at their current job by my doing so).
> I always checked LI for applicants which looked interesting on "paper" but which had not come through a trusted source
This is a good observation.. rumination.. contribution? I can't find the right descriptive noun. Anyway, I get it. Perhaps the board is divided between regions inclined to use LI and not.
I have to disagree. I looked for a long time before I found my last gig (that ended in 2022). I had a LinkedIn and it wasn't much different, it took me months to find something. I still have a linkedin account to look for jobs, but that's it. No connections, no work history. What's relevant is on my resume anyway so I don't see what having a regular linkedin account would do. I deleted it when I found that job because, even as a job seeker, I saw no value in it and as a user, I saw no excuse to defend it.
You've applied to 400 jobs and had 3 responses and no success to be blunt your option about what you need to do to get hired is worth zero.
You refuse to change anything about your process, you aren't working to improve it, you are arguing against people telling them you don't need to do common/standard things.
This thread is a pretty good insight into why you are failing and what you need to work on.
Like I said, i had a legit linkedin account before i closed it and it never felt like it did anything for me. I have changed plenty about my process, from cv iterations and reviews, ai assistance to cater to job posts in cv and cover letters, etc. Of course i think all the information is great, but i also have first hand knowledge and experience. If you think all that's missing is a furnished LinkedIn account then i can tell you that it isn't accurate - in my experience.
I have a couple dozen open roles right now, at a 50-person company. Each posting gets thousands of applications. Most are fakes, or AI-generated, or AI-generated fakes. Realistically, we're going to respond to 1%, maybe 2% of them, because again, 50-person team. Half the time, you get someone named Ralph McGuinness on for a quick code screen and they have a thick Mandarin accent or something equivalently implausible.
The best first filter we have at the moment is to programmatically toss out any resume that doesn't have a LinkedIn, that has a hallucinated LinkedIn that doesn't resolve, that resolves to a name that doesn't match the resume, that has no connections or history, etc.
It's an absurd state of play that hurts those of us trying to hire and those of you trying to get hired, but also a trivial hurdle for you to clear, so stop arguing and just do it.
Of those 400 applications, my LinkedIn profile was viewed 16 times. LinkedIn is not as essential as everyone is trying to portray it. Especially outside of the US where people actually care about data privacy.
LinkedIn only shows you authenticated viewers. You have no idea how many automated systems have filtered you out because you didn't include a link in your resume/application or because, as you said, the account has no connections or activity.
Do you know of any such automated systems or are you just making that up? I've never heard of application systems or ATS that looks for a linkedin URL in PDFs, extracts it along with employment information and validates it against what's in the resume, or a form that validates that a given entry leads to a valid LinkedIn profile, and that the profile corresponds to the one that was submitted. Recruiters; yes, and those will show up - and they haven't.
to put it bluntly, the game has changed. what you knew from before is not correct now. if you keep applying your previous intuition and experience to a job search in todays market, you are going to be in for a hard time.
You are delusional if you think having a good LinkedIn doesn't improve your chances of getting hired... Maybe not for every job, but for many of them, surely.
I guess my experience hasn't shown value. I think people think of LinkedIn like Facebook - it only works if everyone agrees to stay hostage. I don't like the platform, I don't like that Microsoft is being all Microsofty about your data (have you looked at the new settings lately? That they added without telling anyone? Settings → Data Privacy → Data for Generative AI Improvement) and being a data-aware netizen, fuck linkedin.
Hiring manager here. It's standard practice for every hiring manager I know to review the candidate's LinkedIn as an additional input to the hiring process.
Not finding a LinkedIn page for someone can range from a neutral signal to a negative signal depending on the hiring manager. I personally don't read anything into it, but I know many hiring managers who feel that lack of a LinkedIn page is a negative sign. I don't like it, but it's how the world works some times.
A seasoned LinkedIn page is also becoming very valuable for applying to remote jobs. Remote employers are getting nervous with all of the overemployed people and fake applicants. Having a mature LinkedIn page with a decent number of connections to real people is a major positive sign for remote hiring.
It's not something you will be able to see or detect as a candidate.
I’m a manager in a cybersecurity consulting firm. I’ve hired half a dozen people for my team in the past year. I always check LinkedIn as well.
If someone isn’t on it, the chances are significantly higher they are fake or trying be be “overemployed.”
Does not having LinkedIn mean you’re not qualified or not real? Certainly not. Does it mean I will pass your resume over when sorting through a stack of qualified applicants? Absolutely.
Those people probably have very strong personal networks and a willingness to reach out to them for opportunities or a very high profile in their niche.
> You are delusional if you think having a good LinkedIn doesn't improve your chances of getting hired... Maybe not for every job, but for many of them, surely.
This isn't universal in every market. Business is very insular here and work follows referrals and introductions. You have those and you have work. Without them, Linkedin won't help.
I'm 35yr in IT; I plug into my clients in a way that I learn their processes - inc hiring. Few white collar employers here use Linkedin. I've never worked with one who did.
Seriously. I could write 20 years of fake FAANG experience, connect with every rando posting AI slop since they just farm connections, and that would be better according to what i'm reading here.
One small note -- what got you an interview before 2020 will often not get you an interview now. The market (as you obviously know) is much tougher. The last two managerial roles I've opened have gotten literally thousands of applications within the first week and it's harder to stand out. If you've done a few rounds already, there's probably not much incremental value, though.
Absolutely ask for referrals. You gotta painfully get on LinkedIn for maximum effectiveness -- if you're looking at a company and an ex-coworker you got along with knows someone there, ask for the introduction. It feels awkward and weird but it increases your chances somewhat.
Even if i did i would never post it publicly. And yes i understand that it means i won't be getting thousands of strangers looking at my personal experience, one of whom might want to hire me. I wouldn't post my resume either. I'm just not comfortable giving my data to a company i don't trust and to share it openly on the public web. And yes i'm ok with the consequences.
If you are trying to get a job based on your resume and blindly submitting it to an ATS, you are doing it wrong. Every open req gets hundreds of applications and it’s impossible to stand out from the crowd.
I am not the original commenter but I think something that younger people forget is that when you reach 2 decades or more into your career, your network starts to dry up for you. This is in addition to your skillsets and work cultural fit being suspect because of your experience and age (set in their ways, old thinking, etc…).
I have been in tech for nearly 40 years. Almost every one of my former bosses is either out of the industry, retired, or dead. My network is useless to me. If my current job ends…I won’t find another tech gig.
this year's job market is really bad. my manager landed a new job last year but he have spent 5 years causally looking for a job ever since my employer got bought out. i have been looking to jump ship but gave up.
It was already bad before AI fucked it nine feet deeper. Now it's probably change career type of situation, but after climbing the tech salary ladder for 25 years (not US level mind you), it's real daunting to go back at the bottom.
This is sort of what I'm afraid of. I reflect on a lot of people I worked with in the past that are a little older than I am now and things were rough. They'd basically try and find side work and make a living off of it but nearly all of them returned to the workforce. Now, jobs are scarce so I'm really thinking that a career change might be in order. With self driving cars posed to take out a chunk of low skilled jobs and with the self imposed AI that will likely cost 25% of IT job shrinkage, the future looks really grim.
Crass's song from the 1981 Systematic Death last verse seems prophetic, "They'd almost paid the mortgage when the system dropped its bomb".
>> By EOY I had to sell my house, figured I could use the (significant) profits to buy time or I could travel and make the time a little more enjoyable, so I set out to explore most of Europe thinking, well I'll for sure find a job before I run out of money!
Very reckless finance management, so I wonder if this correlates with not finding a "managerial" job.
First, "set out to explore Europe" immediately says "expenses". Without an income, that's teenager-level mentality.
Secondly, unless the house was still on mortgage, definitely it's cheaper to live on your own property and only scrap money for bills and food than paying rent on top of those. Also, and I'm not generalizing here, but people in general have parents / relatives. If times were that tough, I would retreat to my parent's house and rent the city apartment, that definitely buys me time.
And last but not least ... there are blue-collar jobs out there as a last resort. A friend of mine who lost his QA job, couldn't find anything else so he apprenticed as an electrician and now has got a license and works as such. Says he makes about the same as previously. There's "stacking the shelves at Lidl" also, not paying much but at least you're making something. And if you're willing to put up with the hard physical work and risk of accidents, there's always decent-paying construction jobs.
I'd say 2-3 months of looking are acceptable. After 6 months, some "plan B" needs to kick in, including the very mentally difficult idea of letting go of the past. You may have been a managing director but for the moment, the only option could be Lidl employee.
There is actually meticulous financial planning required to stay afloat for 2+ years, and i do think it correlates with my professional abilities! Sure, it was reckless to leave but the alternative was to stay and fall into a depression from the routine, constant rejection and financial diet, so i picked what i had to.
I'm not entirely convinced wrt your meticulous financial planning.
I think I was earning less than you yet managed to save the vast majority over my 15 year career earnings. Then my partner died and I was left raising a toddler by myself. It wasn't easy, but at least I don't have financial problems, thanks to a little financial planning.
It’s possible there are unknown circumstances, but this person sold their house and used to proceeds to travel while unemployed. They don’t seem like a great long term decision maker.
Are his parents owners? Is he going to inherit their house? Or other assets? Can he stay at his brother's place once he uses up all the money from the proceeds of house sale?
It's really hard to judge without asking lots of questions first.
After reading through this thread, do you not think you might be being overly selective? You said you're only really applying to European jobs but hiring people that need working visas is usually a pretty big detractor. No LinkedIn can work, but in the LLM era you need something to prove you're real and you also stated you haven't been asking previous coworkers for referrals. It's very normal here to ask coworkers for referrals so I assume it's a cultural difference? But they usually get you to the interview stage. Your resume is likely not baring you but if you are applying to large enough companies that have thousands of applications on each role, they are using LLMs to filter them down. You should be running your resume against an "Act as a hiring manager" style prompt to see if you're getting filtered that way.
I’m curious about personal connections. I’ve got many fewer years of experience and have had great luck with finding jobs thanks to friends and former colleagues even in tough job markets.
That's something that I've really wondered about too, since I can't count the number of people I hooked up with jobs I asked myself why the pendulum wasn't swinging back. I relocated "to the countryside" a few years ago and lost my big city tech network, where I was very active and even central. Not being on social media means I have very few ways to reach back out these days.
Everyone thinks they know better, that's just the nature of people on internet forums. That's why I stopped asking for CV reviews - as soon as people know I'm struggling they come up with pointless edits. His point boils down to "you have no network, physical or digital" which might sound accurate with the information he's got, but isn't in reality because there's obviously more context than what I've shared here. I didn't just sit around brainlessly applying to jobs for two years. I've tried shit.
I don’t think I could easily get a job right now by applying to open positions. I haven’t gotten a job that way since my first job post graduation, and back then it was pretty easy to get into tech.
Canada, but I'm a rare case that I'm open to relocate anywhere (except the US) and have been working remotely since before it was made popular by the pandemic. So I've been applying literally all over the world for two years (though it's been mostly Europe due to personal preference and desire to relocate there).
The fact you're being questioned about this is insane.
There used to be a 0% chance of being tossed on a plane and deported somewhere else in the world when visiting the US. That chance is now non-zero, which is an unacceptable level of risk for many.
That and everything else going on. There's a reason Canadians have stopped traveling down south...
Honestly, I think macro factors -- namely, poor Canadian household finances due to increasing cost of living and declining real incomes in Canada coupled with a strengthening US dollar against the Loonie -- are what are killing tourism from CAN to US right now.
Ok; all I can say is what the statistics indicate. It seems like at least some Canadians accept assignments which result in business travel to the US. As with the OC, this may result in more desirable employees to Canadian employers who wish to continue to do business with the US, hence the original question.
All of my personal network has stopped non-mandatory travel to the US. I wouldn’t be surprised people wouldn’t resist if their employer told them to go for business, but many Canadians are simply opting out of leisure travel to the United States.
There are plenty of other places to travel is the rationale. besides, if a strong greenback was the reason for decrease of leisure, wouldn’t it also be responsible for a decrease in business travel, too? Certainly businesses are also bound to macroeconomic shifts.
I don't know what to tell you but on the front of:
> There are plenty of other places to travel is the rationale. besides, if a strong greenback was the reason for decrease of leisure, wouldn’t it also be responsible for a decrease in business travel, too? Certainly businesses are also bound to macroeconomic shifts.
Canada has shockingly little choice when it comes to trade partners. They are literally physically attached to the US and trade is much simpler when working with the US, whether Canada likes it or not. CETA hasn't yet been ratified; Canada has bungled trade with China since harper; Mexico is at best a cheap labor destination that can replace India for Canada. The only real staying power Canada has is exporting raw materials, and even that effectively turns Canada into a resource extraction colony. That's not a happy ending, either.
Canadian businesses have fewer options than many would like to admit, so it makes sense they are keeping up their economic activity with the US.
The left hand of the chart in the 2nd link provides some perspective for this year's numbers.
July 2024 through Jan 2025, the YoY numbers are always in the 7%-9% range. Averages to 7.7% across those months.
Feb 2025 to July 2025, there's only a single month (April) in that range. We've got 2 months at 1% YoY growth, one break even, and two negative. Those months average out to about 0.7%. If you include Jan 2025 to align to the calendar year 2025, you get 1.57%, which seems to be the number that becomes 'nearly 2 percent' in the text under the chart.
While it is still positive growth, it's 20% of the YoY growth trend for several months heading up to 2025. If you take out Jan 2025 (2/3 of which Trump was not yet president), it's only 10%.
In your opinion, what is false about it? Canada's growth segment in exports was minerals and tourism services. That's Canada's situation, unfortunately.
The CV info you posted basically says upper management. I'm seeing increasingly that companies centralize management in an office (either city satellites or a hq) and permit developers to either work remote within the geographic region with occasional onsites. I don't know of anybody that would permit a manager (much less someone that is a sr. manager) to be remote which is why I asked.
Do you really need additional clarification on why non-American citizen might choose not to travel to the US for literally any reason? If you do need examples, let me just gesture broadly to the entire US society.
Not really. I even live in one of the cities that is "under siege". It's basically another day.
People read headlines, lock themselves in a cage of their own making, and assume the world is on fire. People would do better trusting their own eyes and ears.
I’m in CA vacationing right now for a month, flew in last week. Literally the same experience getting in, and on the daily, as it’s been for the last decade of visiting annually.
I was talking to my +1 at work before I left, he’s just gotten back from living in OH for the last couple of years for his wife’s job. As much as stuff is seemingly a shit show at the highest levels (which we can all agree on, I reckon), the day to day hasn’t changed all that much. At least not for us privileged techies.
But hey, that’s just two datapoints, so what do I know really.
Yeah. That's actually the only way to get a TN -- to oversee technical work in a managerial capacity. Technical managers of software engineers are 100% able to enter under TN.
Sorry - I mean the "only way" as a manager, not as a software/technical professional.
You can't for example, use manager of a McDonalds to qualify as a manager under a TN as far as I understand it. If you are a manager, you need to be technical in nature.
Directors of Engineering in Eastern Canada make (or made, until recently) < 200k, CAD. That's 145k USD. So no, didn't have much of a golden parachute like the US do.
Are expenses so high there? That’s still more than twice what you’d make here in Western Europe, and you’d have an easy time saving way more than a year of expense here.
I've been unemployed for almost three years. It's somewhat intentional - at least leaving my last job was and I've been dragging my feet. Hopefully will have a job in upper management at the start of next year if things work out.
Coping by trying my best to become the type of person that I aspire to be. Quit weed, alcohol, caffeine. Lost 20lbs of fat and put on some muscle. Run 6 days a week, lift 3-4 days a week. Meal prep all my foods and getting into a good routine about those things.
Taught myself Rust and ECS and tried my hand at building a game. Built an Arduino prototype of some hardware a friend wanted to see exist, but ended up not trying to take it further. Built a website to help people play a video game better, it became popular while the game was trending, and made ~3-6k/mo running ads on the site. Went to Burning Man for the first time.
Now I'm kind of out of things that sound fun/purposeful and having a purpose dropped into my lap by working on an ongoing project with an existing team sounds more appealing than it did when I left the work world. So, slowly going back that way and hoping to hold onto all my good vibes and positive habits as I do so.
It's not exactly what I expected to spend three years of unemployment doing. I wish I felt more "accomplished" in how I used my time. But idk. Just kept myself busy with things that sounded meaningful in the moment. Now making money sounds more appealing than having more free time so hopefully jumping back in isn't too much of a shock.
Also unemployed for the last 3 years after a layoff. Partially on purpose because I felt I needed a pause to recharge but I kept extending because money was not a problem due to stonks going up.
I learned react, go. Played videogames and had a child. Things are going well.
Part of me is afraid that too much time off the market will make me not fit for the workforce anymore but tbh I feel like my mental health really needed this.
Now I'm faced with a dilemma. Go back to my home country where I probably could retire now at 40 or stay here and try to get back to work. Trump administration has been making my decision easier by the day.
I think from a health perspective coffee/caffeine is fine - maybe even good. I wouldn't be shocked if it were good for you.
My reason for wanting to quit caffeine was related to willpower and self-control. I wanted a stronger mind-body connection where I'd readily act on my desires rather than delegating to "I'll do that once I feel properly caffeinated." I was finding that I wasn't doing much with myself after work hours because my energy levels felt low once caffeine wore off and because I wasn't training myself to be comfortable doing things even when I didn't "feel" like doing them. Those behaviors made me uncomfortable with myself, but I never felt like I had the time to address them while working a full-time job. At best, I'd get two day "detoxes" over the weekend and then hop right back on the bean juice Monday morning.
My take on the health benefits of coffee or tea is that it's probably nothing to do with the caffeine, and a lot to do with antioxidants. Both of these drinks are high in antioxidants, and the typical modern diet is low, so for a lot of people caffeinated drinks are a major source of their antioxidant intake. This shows up statistically as coffee and tea increasing longevity, but on an individual level, just make sure you're getting antioxidants from other parts of your diet instead.
My milage does vary. I swore off caffeine for a decade. Then I discovered that stims restore some cognitive function that I had written off.
The difference is that my anxiety is more interesting (to me) than distressing. I can sometimes leverage it as a mechanism for change.
Granted - this also possible because my anxiety (currently) falls within a range. Turn it up a ½doz notches and I probably won't be mining it for usefulness.
I think I’m okay with scheduling my work around those known lulls, but I’m happy you shared your thoughts and perspective about it. Certainly gives me something to think about.
Not if you’re a slow metabolizer. 15% of the population.
CYP1A2
Increased heart attack risk: A 2006 study found that slow metabolizers who drank four or more cups of coffee per day had a 64% increased risk of a nonfatal myocardial infarction (heart attack) compared to those drinking less than one cup daily. The risk was even higher for slow metabolizers under age 50, who experienced more than four times the risk
No increased risk for fast metabolizers: In the same study, fast metabolizers did not experience an increased risk of heart attack, even with high coffee consumption.
Not if you have high blood pressure, both it and salt can affect your B.P.
Years ago I suffered with very bad dizzy spells which always began when I tried to get out of bed in mornings. They could last a few days. A doctor said another patient had same symptom and found reducing caffeine intake reduce them. I switched to decaf and progressively they got weaker, ultimately vanishing!
Caffeine withdrawals suck and it's a time and money sink keeping them at bay. I'm an habitual coffee drinker, love the caffeine high and the taste. I still wish I didn't get a headache by noon if I skipped a morning. A few days off the stuff and I'm fine, but it's still bothersome enough that sometimes I think it would justify quitting the habit.
It's enough work as it is staying fed, hydrated and getting a solid 8 hours of sleep. 20 minutes a day on getting your coffee fix is like 2 hours a week you could put to better purposes. Your article doesn't quantify the benefits, it just says there's some, that leads me to suspect that they're fairly minimal. Maybe getting an extra 2 hours of sleep or exercise would do more for your health.
It's neither good nor bad in absolute terms. It can be misused, abused, and overdone like any substance.
In my experience, the people who benefit from quitting caffeine were either using far too much of it, were drinking it too late in the day (interferes with sleep), or were using it to cover up other problems like poor sleep habits.
The person drinking a cup or two of green tea in the mornings after going to bed on time is going to have a different relationship than the person drinking very strong coffee drinks all day long to stay awake because they've been scrolling on their phone until 2AM every night instead of trying to sleep on time.
For those who can't metabolize it it's a net negative. Even a sip in the morning keeps me on edge the whole day and delays my sleep onset by around an hour.
I am on my sabatical now which I started to recover from burnout working in early stage startup. I stopped drinking coffee. I have drunk 4 to 8 coffees daily at work. It helped me to survive the day but I did not enjoy the taste. It was like eating pills. Also it did not help with sleep at night and rest during the day. I have not drink coffee or green tea for 4 months and now I have started again because I crave for coffee taste but I drink way less (3-4 coffees a week). Good think is that I enjoy it again, it helps me concentrate and also it does not interfere with my rest and sleep. The same applies to alcohol even in small amounts. It helps you to cope with overwork but it drains you in long term.
edit: So it is not only about health but also about satisfaction and well being.
When I see my interns drinking Red Bull for work: I get it that you have extremely high career objectives, but maybe you’re stressing about them more than working on them.
Worst case, you can work 8hrs during the day and study 3hrs in the evening with or without Red Bull: in both cases you’ll end up burnt out, you can just force it for a few months more with drugs.
What industry do you want to work in? Pick a vertical market and make stuff for it. Look at government RFI/RFP to see what is needed, follow the trends.
> wish I felt more "accomplished" in how I used my time.
Idk man I think a lot of people here would be proud to have knocked off even one of those things on that list. The lifestyle changes alone are huge accomplishments. I also wouldn’t downplay the significance of spending a little time doing nothing. Probably added some years to your life
I remember taking an incredibly light and schedule-y advantageous semester in college my junior year. I barely had to go to class and they were all frontloaded on Monday/Tuesday basically. I had so much free time and all these grand plans, none of which I actually followed through on lol
Honestly, if you didn't struggle financially, it seems to me that you've had a pretty good time and that your perception that you're not accomplished enough in how you used your time is mostly a byproduct of our tendency to always be unsatisfied rather than stemming from your past few years having truly lacked purpose :-)
How do you go from unemployed for 3 years straight to upper management? Were you already in a similar position in the past? I would think 3 years unemployed may not look good to people who don’t share your personal views (no judgement, I think if you’ve been unemployed for 3 years it shows good financial planning, I just doubt my conservative family would see it the same)
My last role was staff engineer/team lead. The company I was with was acquired and I was asked to take director of engineering post-acquisition. I was pretty stressed out about how the acquisition was being mismanaged and declined the role, but stayed at the company for another year when 95% of my coworkers left. I generated a lot of goodwill with the PE firm and C-suite during this time.
After I left, the PE firm finished the ~failed merger, flipped the company to another buyer, and the PE firm placed the CTO at another company. I've remained friends with the CTO and we have a monthly/bi-monthly check-in. He was very supportive of my side-projects and would've helped fund anything that I said had legs, but is equally eager to work with me again if given the opportunity. The company he's working at is going through a reorg and a position he thinks I'd be a good fit for (admittedly a growth opportunity) should open up.
If that falls through and I'm not able to get a warm intro somewhere then you're absolutely right. I'd focus on applying for IC positions, but clearly communicate that I'm interested in taking on leadership ASAP.
Making games in rust in retirement is my plan. Not, you know, good games (zero game dev experience), or games that anyone would realistically want to play, but seems like it would be interesting to learn.
It's really fulfilling to be able to show people your work and have them play with it. It's so different than like.. spec'ing out a new database schema and then building some APIs over it. They're both coding, but one's a little harder to have a convo about at the dinner table.
Rust is such a mature language to use coming from a JavaScript background. I don't think it makes the best language for writing good games because it's too challenging to write bad prototypes you intend to throw away. You have to refactor frequently and code-compile-run loop is so slow. The lack of quick prototyping discourages me from playing around with ideas that might not work out and that makes for a worse game. However, as a programmer, Rust is an incredibly satisfying language to write in. Everything you do always feels very technically correct. The Rust quip that "if it compiles then it probably works" is very accurate and is a continuous source of pleasure.
I haven't looked into it seriously, no. Scripting support in Bevy (the ECS framework I was exploring) is pretty limited. There's an add-on that can provide unofficial support for LUA (https://github.com/makspll/bevy_mod_scripting) but I doubt that would be compatible with a WASM build target.
>I doubt that would be compatible with a WASM build target.
In principle, I don't see why not. In practice, yeah I can see it. In both cases, can't know without checking, and I haven't. Bevy is pretty cool though!
Maybe one of those would be minimal enough for the rest of the engine to not manage to get your way, as frameworks are known to do. As always, happy hacking!
As someone coming on 30 months of retirement, I'm consciously shifting away from toy projects to projects where I commit to a more polished deliverable.
It helps with commitment and pursuing a deeper learning of the activity instead of doing quick and dirty stuff in my experience. Just don't expect it (or aim for it) to be a steam top-seller, my aim is usually to have at least one other stranger get some amount of value out of what I produce.
Not to say there isn't a place for quick and dirty projects, of course. Bespoke 3D models to fix things around the house are my current favourite category for that.
I’d like to invest time into the Linux gaming ecosystem. Though it’s a little daunting that so much of the work would need to be done by Nvidia and major game studios that don’t really care.
Windows just feels irredeemably mediocre at this point. Maybe Windows 12 will improve things, but I’ve been pretty down on 11.
I'll see how I really feel when it happens but when I retire I don't want to look at a computer for a very long time. I suppose after some time I might get drawn back but I plan to de-tech my life as much as I can.
My friend, so much self-work, you should be proud. Contentedness comes from within. If you think about it, do you really want your worth to be determined by your career? Really? After beating the vices, investing in yourself? I'm proud of you.
There is no "accomplishment". Get off twitter and instagram, and seek contentedness. Everything else is creative self-deceit or comparison games on a rubric that is artificial and asinine.
No one actually cares about your title. Or rather, you probably know that them validating your title isn't really what's going to matter to you? Or is it? Why?
I say this with love, I spent a lot of time (albeit voluntarily) unemployed asking myself such questions. Good luck.
I had a bout of poor health. And now I'm isolated and I don't know how to get reconnected to other people.
I'm not coping terribly well. I think what is most distressing is that I am observing a decline in my capacity. I feel mentally sluggish. I frustrate more easily. I tire more easily. Probably most worryingly to me I get spikes of aggression that lead to combative outbursts. I feel less empathetic, even mildly sadistic at times. Very hard to control the envy and the average person I interact with evokes envy.
Everyone in my life tells me I need to get working again (yes thank you it's obvious). Not even for the money, but just to have a purpose and structure and a social life. A common sentiment. But I've come to understand that it is backwards. Employment is secondary, and it follows from having a social network and being embedded in a social context.
Poverty alters your brain in strange ways. For an example I've been thinking about lately, the world is getting very small. I was late for an important appointment. It simply did not occur to me to take a taxi. I just don't do that anymore. It's sort of categorically ruled out as "expensive luxury". Such a difference from a few years ago! Would have ordered the taxi without even thinking.
On the plus side I quit smoking and lost a bunch of weight and I'm physically in the best shape I've ever been.
> I'm not coping terribly well. I think what is most distressing is that I am observing a decline in my capacity. I feel mentally sluggish. I frustrate more easily. I tire more easily. Probably most worryingly to me I get spikes of aggression that lead to combative outbursts. I feel less empathetic, even mildly sadistic at times. Very hard to control the envy and the average person I interact with evokes envy.
This is textbook major depressive disorder. I know you probably don't want to hear that, but you're basically describing a classic case of depressive symptoms.
> Employment is secondary, and it follows from having a social network and being embedded in a social context.
I'm sorry, but viewing these two things as connected or expecting one to follow the other isn't helpful. We all need a social life and we all need employment, but tying the two of those together isn't healthy. It's important to have a social life outside of work. It's important to have a job that isn't equivalent to your social life.
Don't underestimate the nicotine withdrawal for making you feel crabby - I've heard that anecdote many times. The nice thing is ... that one gets better with time.
If you can I'd chat to my doctor about Adhd and trying something like concerta! I'm able to recognize many of the things you are mentionning here and had positive effects from methylphenidate.
ADHD isn't a condition which spontaneously appears mid-life following an obvious difficult event like losing one's job for an extended period.
The comment was clear that these symptoms appeared after the job loss. It's a match for the symptoms of a depressive episode (which can and does appear after a difficult life situation) but not ADHD.
Suggesting that the commenter seek out stimulant medication is not good advice.
Many (including myself) have been successfully living with symptoms without treatment, but seeked my eoctors advice after having similar symptoms after a similar situation, and the result was adhd medication which helped.
Suggesting that someone talks to their doctor about symptoms is reasonable advice.
Edit0: and I wouldn't go around diagnosing people with depressive episodes from a single comment, were I in your shoes. Let their practicians do diagnoses, you know?
He is unemployed which likely means he has no doctor or that high end health care if the sort you’re assuming is not something he has access to. Poor Americans can go to the ER, but talking to someone with knowledge and capacity to prescribe psychotropics is not how this works.
Took me 15 months to find a job after a layoff and then I accepted the first offer that came, which is basically worse in every aspect compared to my previous job. I've read all your stories and feel unexpectedly so connected with each of you. It can be hard. I just want to wish you all the best.
I don't know you either, but I feel weirdly and unexpectedly connected to your message too. I'm 4 months into a layoff, still hunting. Appreciate your message!
I could have written this comment myself word for word except my unemployment lasted 12 months. I hope we all find our way back into better jobs someday and I sincerely appreciate your comment.
I've been unemployed for about 1 year now. I was in SF working in tech for about 7 years, and decided I don't want to do that anymore, so I quit.
It's been tough. The hardest part about being unemployed is it is very hard to structure your days because work is no longer the thing that is forcing you to get up, get out, go to bed on time, etc. It's also a strange feeling having to spend from your savings/emergency fund without money coming in, you feel bad and guilty for doing so, it's weird.
I'm changing careers. I've always liked teaching, so I'm doing volunteer english teaching while preparing to apply to go back to school in order to get a Masters in Education.
In the mean time, I'm also doing other small things. Learning about AI, going to board game meetups, doing some traveling, overall it's not the most fun part of my life, but I'm treating it as I will look back on this and realize this was necessary.
> The hardest part about being unemployed is it is very hard to structure your days
The irony is that it takes a lot more personal discipline to remain productive without any sort of feedback loop, but the unemployed are presumptively regarded as flawed and lazy :-)
I was in tech for over 20 years, and went from being good at my job/successful to being permanently disabled. My entire life was wired around providing for my family and supporting everyone around me both financially, and via my success.
I've lost that identity, and despite extensive therapy, meds, etc. I still haven't found myself yet.
I have that identity, ie being the pillar of stability and support for those around me.
One thing I worry about is getting a stroke or become blind, paralyzed or similar.
Having lost people around me or seen them fall seriously ill , made me realize things can change so quickly.
I admire ppl like yourself who keep going.
Or people like Paul De Gelder, who lost the majority of their limbs and then just keep going and seem to thrive.
I wonder how ppl like that change their mindset after such life events. What happens in the brain? Is it via therapy or effectively deciding to make the best with the cards you’ve been dealt.
From what you wrote, it sounds like you haven’t lost a core pillar of your identity, which is a positive mindset.
I'm hitting 2 years of unemployment in a month. Its somewhat intentional, the day after I became unemployed (I quit) I started to learn Elixir and began work on building a MMO-type game (this was unplanned). Why? Because I like distributed systems programming. I didn't expect to still be working on it 2 years later. Honestly there was no plan or expectation. I got sucked into this project and it was better than having to look for a job. Its fulfilling and intellectually stimulating. The game has public playtests and I have some interested players.
But now I'm hitting 2 years and the money is starting to dry up so I need to find work again. I always thought working on this type of project would be a win-win for finding work again, but it hasn't helped much. It may even be a hinderance. Employers/Recruiters don't take it seriously or see it as some exotic work experience. I try to tell them - Distributed Systems...the concepts are the same wherever you go. No dice. I'm on the younger side and have 3 years of professional experience at a payments startup doing backend + devops + AWS. Sometimes I wonder if I screwed myself out of the job market. I'm seen as a Junior Dev with a 2 year work experience gap.
I cope by staying in shape. I have a good routine and I even got into swimming over the past year! I think if it wasn't for these activities I would've fell into despair some time ago.
A tip about independent projects on a resume. Put yourself as an employee, a hired contractor, or just a technical co-founder. Don't mention that you're the solo or main founder, unless it's a far past project. I've learned the hard way that regardless of what they may say about looking for autonomous, free thinking, resourceful, self-starters, basically all the qualities of an entrepreneur, employers balk at the label. Some will reject a good profile if they don't feel that you'll be around for more than 2 years, even though many of their recent hires are gone shortly after a single year.
List what the technical challenges of the projects were, what its promoters expected, and how you addressed everything. Don't let entrepreneurial merits overshadow technical ones, especially if you're not after a position like product manager in a company that truly understands how to employ entrepreneurs.
Another way to think about it is that the perception that someone else took a risk on you seems more valuable to employers than you being crazy enough, audacious enough, or courageous enough to dare take on life.
I was arrested for reasons I still do not understand for 1.5 years as the charges and reason(s) for my arrest make no sense, so in that sense, yes. Developed intensified bipolar disorder while locked up in jail. Biding my time until the charges get dropped or I get declared innocent by a judge so I can file a lawsuit against the police department. All that's left to do is wait, either for lawsuit time or for job applications to come through and hope there isn't a thorough background check (there hasn't been for most of my positions so far).
If your line of work is amenable to independent contracting you might consider setting up a company that you can work through rather than raw dogging 1099. I ran a security consulting company for about ten years and only on exceedingly rare (and obvious) circumstances would we have to submit background checks.
I've tried the consultancy route, but I am just not good enough at marketing myself to develop repeat business. I have an Upwork profile and tried freelancing for a bit, but it's just not worth having to purchase "connects" to initiate a bid proposal and time and again not be selected for the work (yes, I add in a cover letter message on every proposal).
I am sincerely sorry. I wish we would take the ever-intensifying War On Redemption seriously.
Or at least realize the existence of it happening all around us (crim recs, credit reports, ever harsher laws driven by crim-just industry lobbyists, etc).
I developed a new set of symptoms that I did not have before jail. Cartoons and characters saying different things as voices when I get overly self conscious about certain things.
I just want to say I'm really sorry you are struggling with voices and self consciousness. Not being able to escape our own minds is a feeling I don't wish on anyone and I hope you all the best through your struggles.
Thank you so much! Thankfully I have a good support system, so it's not all bad news. It mostly just means I have to avoid RTO by any means necessary because I have no idea if symptoms might emerge in the middle or end of a work day. Working on positive ways to manage it in therapy so that's good news as well.
If it helps I'm also in jail right now where I came down with a different disorder, multiple personality disorder. Hi there! Me too, I'm also in jail and also got diagnosed with multiple personality disorder. Hello, I'm a lawyer and I'm hoping to sue the state on behalf of my two friends here.
Ooh, that's one of "fun" ones alright. Can happen if the perceptual validator has encysted the behavioral corrector. (Or vice versa I guess; I just ripped out mine since they were known bad; other story - point is, being unable to examine things too closely is part of the whole predicament) Jail as liminal space makes total sense as the environment for habitual workarounds to fray and the underlying issue to manifest.
Check this out. By directing your attention, you should be able to flip the polarities of either circuit and/or the "cyst" (i.e. the connection your mind makes between the two, before proceeding to disavow it; speculated transmissible). If works anything like a logic gate which determines the content of your spontaneous reaction and/or reflection to contradictory percepts and/or concepts, by messing with its truth table you should be able to switch between selective deafness, a Freudian slip, stuttering, and the one you're currently having.
Source: never sat, just hung out. "You thought radical freedom is the answer? Let's see how you handle being locked up with all other people who thought radical freedom was the answer!" is a pretty fucked up basis for a society and also a thing.
The only time I've ever seen "jail" spelled this way was in Elden Ring, and I had to look it up to see how it's supposed to be pronounced to learn that it's an Old English way of spelling "jail" and is pronounced like "jail".
Curious if you've been playing a lot of Elden Ring or if there's another reason you chose this spelling.
Common until a hundred years or so ago. We also don't have the jail/prison distinction that the US has, and they're all officially called "His Majesty's Prison X" so it's not a common word in British English anymore, except in US import. So "jail" is now standard if used.
My first instinct is to run from the cops no matter what just because I've been assaulted by them enough for one lifetime. One doesn't have to be breaking any law to end up targeted by some crazy cop, American police are like rabid animals.
Making ends meet with a return to non-tech after a 3 decade break. Won’t ever stop doing that at least part-time, going forward, for security. For tech, focused on a body of work to create opportunities.
Finding the new angle to something I had previously found demeaning, was the key step to improving things for me. I think that is personal to our own journeys.
I've been out of work coming up to six years. I had to look after my dad during the pandemic. I've been looking for work in London, UK, since January. During that time I've had a total of 2 interviews. Recruiters, who seem to do a keyword search only, message me from time-to-time on LinkedIn. I reply and they almost invariably never respond, presumably because they look more closely and see the large gap in employment.
What complicates things for me is being legally blind. I have enough vision to use a computer, but not much else and so I don't have the breadth of career options available to me that most people do. I need a way back in.
I keep reading, and I keep playing with code like I always have. I'm comfortable with C#, JavaScript and their respective ecosystems. It's like riding a bike. But convincing other people of that, recruiters especially, is proving to be a problem.
As for how I'm coping, I'm very up and down. It's hard not to feel that my career might be over. So when interviews have come up, I'm extremely nervous despite never having that problem in the past where I'd usually interview well.
Somehow, at least for now, I've kept going. Thanks for starting the thread.
FWIW I’m Hoping that the combination of AI and ridiculously powerful small devices will finally get us to the point where we can interact with computers primarily through voice. A limiting factor seems to be misunderstanding what’s actually required, and you likely have insight and can build experience there. So if you were able to on your own time, build some small systems and demonstrate effective voice interaction, that might lead to some interesting work, and benefit others. From C#, you might be able to transition easily to Swift and target the Apple ecosystem, which has an a lot more accessibility support, and also has the possibility of becoming an independent developer.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. It's funny you mention this, because I've wondered about something similar. But I'm not sold on computers being controlled primarily through voice while CEOs demand a return to the office. It would make an office too noisy which makes me think remote work would be a necessary precondition for it.
You're correct about becoming an independent developer though. This whole experience made me realise that needs to be my goal if the tech industry can toss me aside at a moment's notice. I need a job to do that safely though. It's too risky on its own.
Fwiw and you probably know but being almost legally blind puts you in a protected class, most employers would make exceptions to allow you to do your job. And it would be entirely reasonable to say that you need speech to text tools to work and don’t want to bother other coworkers.
Edit: was speaking from a US perspective before realizing you were in the UK, but would be surprised if you didn’t have even better protections
You're in the UK: take advantage of the various schemes that allow people with disabilities to get guaranteed first interviews.
If you need any software job you might even have luck with graduate schemes at companies like BT who I believe will have similar shortcuts through recruitment for those with disabilities.
I've had one idea in mind for a few years now. It's outside of my normal skill set so it's risky to pursue at the moment. But maybe I should start putting a little time into it even if it's just to help recharge my batteries somewhat.
A11y is a field with a high economic potential and with an incredibly supportive community.
For recharging batteries, I warmly recommend to join the A11y Slack: use its search function, explore your idea further, or find interesting new contacts.
I’ve requested an invite link for you. When it gets accepted, you should get an email – feel free to click (or ignore) it!
"I reply and they almost invariably never respond, presumably because they look more closely and see the large gap in employment."
Ive long thought about this problem. I think the issue is we dont have an objective mechanism to understand ones capability. Because thats really what matters.
Two people can have the same YOE, but how do you know which is more capable? Interviews are a terrible way to guage this, but is the present day mechanism thats used.
If you think there is a better way, explore it and find out. I mean that sincerely. What is obvious to you isn't necessarily obvious to anyone else. You never know what may come of it.
I've been happily unemployed since 2022. Not planning to be employed ever again. Have enough money for the rest of my life already. Not because I'm rich, but because I live cheaply.
Working on self-improvement: excercise, eat/sleep well, defeat phone addiction, become social. I enjoy drugs once a week. I travel all year in some beautiful places. Spend ~2 hours every day trying to find a wife.
In 5-10 years (wifed up or wifeless), I'll buy a house in the forest and spend the rest of my life playing piano, studying math, and creating tech for fun.
Not trying to counter you but this is the definition of rich. This modern idea that rich means you have infinite money and many Lamborghinis is odd - rich is being independent, with the ability to travel and do whatever you want, for the rest of your life. It’s OK to be rich, it doesn’t reflect poorly on you!
But doing whatever you want is very personal ; for some people that's driving a different Lambo every day of the week, sitting on a yacht with staff, owning private jets. For others it's travelling and doing whatever they want. For others it's staying home and just having a nice life. I would say if what you consider a good life you can do that until you perish, you are rich.
My best friend lives of about E500/mo; hates travelling (so never does) and has been the happiest person I know since he moved from north EU to south. Sold his company before the move for a few 100k and as such can do what he wants the rest of his life. Most people would not consider him rich ; quite the opposite, but most people want 'stuff' and travel, both of which are usually costly.
2 hours of daygame.
Yes, high standards. I had the perfect gf 10 yrs ago, anything less will keep me regretful. 80% of the population is obese, just for a start. I estimate I like 0.1%.
And this is how corrupt abusive companies can keep thriving. People will tell you "vote with your feet" from their high horse but it just doesn't work. These companies will always find somebody else to fill that role. The person needs the job more than the company does.
EDIT: Oh, wow, so much disagreement. 30 minutes, 3 downvotes, 0 comments. So tell me _where_ I am wrong.
Microsoft is not an abusive employer. Most people today or at any point in human history would envy the typical Microsoft job. Pretty much all large tech companies are similar in this respect. If your employer is actually abusing you in some way you should contact a lawyer. If you simply have a distaste for your employer you should seek alternative employment.
The defeatist "all corps are evil" mentality will not do you any good.
I didn't say it's an abusive employer but an abusive company.
It always fought against open source. Embrace, extend, extinguish. It always stifled innovation. Internet Explorer 6. And now, it bought GitHub and then plagiarized all public and private projects hosted on it. GPL cannot exist in a world where you can build a statistical model of the code and mechanically reproduce its functionality while somehow losing the GPL licensing in the process.
Also, calling it "defeatist" has no base in what I wrote. I didn't even write anything about corporations. Abuse has a much simpler description - using a power differential to benefit yourself at other people's expense.
Don't anthropomorphize organizations. It was no longer beneficial for them to openly fight open source so instead the people in charge decided they needed to get developer mindshare by changing their public signaling. The sad thing is many people fell for it. They can just as easily switch back at any time when it becomes beneficial.
BTW, the phrasing "Microsoft has embraced open source" is very ironic and given my previous paragraph, it is a nice foreshadowing or what can come next at any time.
> Are you claiming Microsoft/GitHub used or sold private source code for training LLMs?
I have not seen it denied in any official communication. After skimming this question[0], nobody else could either and the phrasing in their FAQ is oddly specific about Business and Enterprise. So yes, given their patterns of behavior, it's very likely and I will consider it true until proven otherwise.
But that's not the biggest issue. That is that every LLM or LLM-adjacent company (Microsoft included) seems to suddenly argue that a mechanical transformation of input data is enough to erase licensing and attribution.[1] Free software licenses like GPL simple cannot exist in this environment. In fact, any licenses would have exactly 0 meaning.
See a program you want with a license you don't want? Just run it through a sufficiently complex black box and out the other side you have an identically behaving program which according to big-tech has no relation to the input. You can even do this with closed source software if you run it through a decompiler first.
I recall a MS CEO shouting something about developers when developers were the thing they needed most. Now they can train NNs on the devs' own work to imitate and replace the devs so devs are no longer valuable and get thrown under the bus.
Oh and MS employees are apparently forced to use LLMs by management...
I don't think anybody needs a job at Microsoft. The compensation is well above the US median income. If you believe Microsoft to be corrupt and abusive (I personally don't but reasonable people can disagree) there are many other opportunities to work for more virtuous organizations if you're willing to accept lower compensation.
I see this sentiment (that if someone can get a FANG job then they can get a startup job easily) on here all the time, and it is a belief that needs to die.
When I took an offer at Google I had literally been searching for months and had no other offers.
Years later, after a couple years career break I had been searching for months and could hardly get startups to talk to me, but X and Meta seemed very interested (I was not interested in them).
I know it sounds intuitive that if someone can land a gig at one of the large companies then they can easily get a job at someplace that's doing "good work" but this is often not the case.
I think it's probably not your intent, but this sort of feels like a humble brag. Reason being that 14 months is far short of "over two years", and I think that a job offer from Microsoft is something that a lot of people would be thrilled with.
I was paid closer to $145k while at Microsoft, and the health insurance fory locality kinda sucked (according to my wife, who manages that part of our lives).
And I didn't stay long enough fory stock grant to vest at all (IIRC).
I was paid closer to $145k while at Microsoft, and the health insurance fory locality kinda sucked (according to my wife, who manages that part of our lives).
I don't really agree that they answered the question directly. The OP asks:
> Has anyone else been unemployed for over two years? How are you coping?
I view the first question as actually being more of a selector trying to narrow down the discussion to people who are in the same boat and are currently unemployed for 2+ years. So not applicable to the parent. And they don't even attempt to answer the second question.
Of course anyone is free to comment on HN, and discussions in comments frequently go off topic. And I do think that 14 months is a long enough time to be able to empathize with with the OP is going through.
But I guess what I personally would like to have seen is some acknowledgement that "I know the question was directed at people who are unemployed for 2+ years, but..." and trying to answer the OPs question of how to cope. And also some acknowledgement that a job at Microsoft, while maybe not a good fit for the parent, is actually quite a privilege.
I was unemployedish (some freelancing) for around 18 months and I'm starting what I think might be my dream job on Monday.
I was very burnt out after being fired / laid off from multiple unethical tech startups and a divorce.
During the ego death I realized that I no longer had any desire to do work that wasn't making the world a better place. I considered changing careers because it's very hard to find software jobs in that space but I kept searching. I remained sane by reminding myself that suffering is temporary and the world is still beautiful in many ways.
I got hired by a local community college to work on some very hard software problems and I couldn't be happier. I get to continue working with the stuff I love while helping people achieve upward mobility.
Working on projects that help society and people can give you so much energy. I experienced it once and want to get back to that. Especially important during these trying times.
Curious to know, what are those hard software problems?
Short term: Work with various departments to pull all student-related data into a data warehouse. Then apply data analysis techniques to try and find the patterns in student failure where the college can offer more support.
Long term: Add in machine learning to automate the most tedious parts of the college's processes. The idea being that we could automate query writing, data linking, etc for reporting, grant proposals, etc. Not without human supervision of course but still saving a ton of time.
The software problems themselves will be hard but I'm sure there will be a lot of hard social problems too.
I've been for much longer. Was unemployed when I developed cancer, and I had dead-beat doctors, so it went undiagnosed for too long and became chronic. During that time I developed a second unrelated cancer (which I have genetic disposition for) when my immune system was occupied with the first, and also COVID. Waiting, surgeries and treatments took two years.
After recovering, the Swedish employment office pushed me into a program for "job training" saying that it would help me ease into working again after my illness.
I was already recovering and feeling well, working out and doing occasional charity work. I wanted to change career and get job market training to become a machinist (a non-declining job market where I wouldn't have to be exposed to AI), but was barred from that because of the program.
The company I was assigned to intern at (as an A/V programmer) claimed they wanted to hire me afterwards. It wasn't really what I wanted but I accepted it as a "consolation price" because it was at least (supposed to be...) a job.
They conspired behind my back to extend the internship period into a full year.
First on my last day did they offer to hire me ... except now only if they could get a government handout for doing so — and that handout would be granted only if I had a disability. I told the employment office No when they asked, but they still required me to continue working until the decision was cleared, which took another month and a half. I am not disabled ... so I didn't get hired.
No training, no job, a year of work for only unemployment checks, and overstressed with new physical outcomes: I've got a cold, the shingles and lichen ruber planus (stress-related rash) during the summer.
Lost my job on new year's day, 2020. Have not worked since. I am not considered skilled enough for the kind of work I imagine most readers here do, meaning no degree or certifications and I've never worked in tech, mostly worked food service and manufacturing, plus odd jobs. So my context might seem irrelevant to some who frequent this site.
When I say I have not worked since, I am only referring to taxable income. Helping my mom put down mulch for her flower garden didn't require a W-2 or I-9 but I still was paid. That's mostly how I have been getting by, odd jobs for family members and friends, with a bit of reselling junk I find on the street as art.
I also live in a very low cost of living area and am very fortunate that my landlord has never increased my rent. My rent is considered shockingly low, even for this poverty dense area. I am by nature very frugal, to extremes at times, like with clothing (all from a thrift store, frequently repaired myself with needle and thread) and furniture from the side of the road.
I always wanted to work in tech. College did not work out for me (I've tried 5 times at 3 different schools) thanks in part to ADHD/bipolar/autism/whatever they call it now, with the closest I've come being a job at a call center. At this point I'm too old for food service and was never good at it anyways, too old and not strong enough for local manufacturing jobs and there are not many opportunities around me for anything else.
I keep a spreadsheet of applications I've turned in and the results of followups. There are just shy of 400 entries currently, most never get a callback or any progress from followups. I've landed 6 interviews in that time, none worked out. It's been close to a year since I added a new entry, I've pretty much given up. I'll call it retirement for a laugh but I'm only 43.
I was a huge gamer for years but quit playing them as a new years resolution (along with watching TV and movies) the same day I lost my job, so I could improve myself and learn more.
I've learned how to install Linux. I haven't used Windows since September 2021.
I got my amateur radio technicians license 2 years ago.
I've programmed "Hello world!" in 14 different programming languages, because that takes about the same amount of time as I can maintain my focus. I've only written a few programs outside the Hello World ones, most of which do not work.
I've built every computer I've owned that I've used regularly (3 total) and feel llike I have a better understanding of them than the majority of people I know (non tech types mostly) and occasionally make money or end up with hand-me-down parts, by helping friends pick out compatible parts and assisting with assembly of their builds.
I've penciled out and/or made somewhat tech-related things, like costumes and props that use simple robotics (moving hand for Halloween) and LEDS ('magic' wands made of wood that light up from the inside with certain movements).
One project currently in progress (i have 100's in progress) is a little box that has sensors for weather, an RTL-SDR to pick up aircraft and a raspberry pi in a 'hopefully' weatherproof case, with the goal of data collecting from locations near me.
I make a ridiculous amount of directed graphs and diagrams.
I have a memory map like a wikipedia of my own life and knowledge.
So yes, I am interested in a little bit of everything, possibly to a fault.
I learned an instrument (guitar), then I learned another instrument (bass guitar). I caught up with my family, I got to spend a lot more time with my nephews and nieces. I got to spend a lot of time with my dad. I picked back up circuit design and made an overdrive guitar pedal from scratch and learned KiCad in the process. I caught up with old friends but lost touch with other ones. I probably acted like an ass to a lot of people. I finally came to understand why people like watching sports. I learned how to write in cursive. I walked a lot. I listened to a lot of music. I listened to some podcasts.
I dunno, it sucks and its painful. You're constantly worried and people who at first try to support you then get pissed off at you for something you can't really control. I hope you can find your way through it.
Picking up cursive again (I had to learn a little bit in elementary school) has been so rewarding for me. Having something right there, in the real world, ready to be picked up at a moments notice and convey whatever is in my mind onto paper is so soothing. It has been the greatest asset in my "put the d** phone down" battle so far
Watching some of the Netflix docs like the Formula 1 one or the Tour de France one is a good gateway drug into "sports watching". It turns out it's all just for the stories, and a bit for the game.
If you're talking about Drive To Survive, keep in mind it's specifically backstage F1 drama and doesn't really capture the sport itself.
As for me, and most motorsport fans I know, it's very much about the sport and skill involved. Sure, there's other aspects to it (people like their drivers/teams/etc) but I would say it's primarily for the sport, not the stories. I can't really speak to any other sports though.
Sports is drama, it follows rules but the details are unscripted. It's never entirely predictable like most other entertainment can be. At the top levels it's also a demonstration of incredible physical skill (perhaps not appreciated if you haven't tried it, or haven't watched a lot).
There are heroes and villains, many different story lines about betrayal & triumphant comebacks from injury or a losing streak, etc. There is also an entire business side to it, where sports teams don't compete solely on the field, but also in business. They compete for market share to sell more jerseys or for talent to get the best players; That's always been the most fascinating to me personally.
Senior dev, 22 years of experience. Almost exactly two years unemployed right now. I've done some technical leadership before but I'm not looking into it anymore, not really my thing.
In general, I get very few replies, even fewer interviews and 100% eventually "freeze the position" or simply ghost me. I've heard that too many companies are currently spending their HR budgets in market research and have no intention of fulfilling most of the positions they advertise. Not sure if that's true, and maybe there are other reasons for that, market-related and/or related to my resume, but applying to jobs is feeling just a huge waste of my time currently and I'm tending to apply only when I see a great fit.
How I cope: I could save a fair amount of money during the startup frenzy in the course of the pandemics and am living off it right now. But it doesn't generate enough passive income, not even close, so I'll have to find a job eventually. I'm seriously considering another profession. Maybe trying to ingress in the education field with my masters. Despite tech job market being at the rock-bottom, the unemployment rates in Brazil are at a historic low.
Now, despite this gloomy report, if you ask me, I'm feeling optimistic, happy even. I'm really seizing the opportunity to study a lot and spending time with my family, so I feel all this is doing me well overall.
It started with a maternity leave. Then after a year, I tried going back to my old job and it was a disaster, so I decided to delay it for a bit longer. Then COVID hit. Then I had another child. Then one day you realize, "has it really been 5 years since I stopped working?"
Coming back at that point felt impossible: I wanted a part time job, my skills were outdated and rusty - I didn't even bother applying anywhere, I wouldn't stand a chance. I started searching for alternatives: small freelance gigs, bounties, personal projects... None were a success.
This year I mustered the courage to start applying to jobs again, only to realize that my most pessimistic fears were totally falling short.
I haven't burned all my rope yet, but It's not looking great.
If you're wondering: the way I'm surviving financially is because my spouse does have a full-time job, so we adapted to live with that.
I lost my job in 2017 and was out for almost 3 years until 2020. Some of that was by choice (we just had a baby and we agreed my wife should get a job first), but after a year and a half and going through a bunch of interviews (where I almost got the job), I ultimately landed at a FAANG.
What I did learn, and what should have been obvious, is that the longer you are out of the market, the more they think you are damaged goods.
I've only managed to get sesonal summer jobs, in 2023 I finished my higer vocational studies as a frontend developer.
The jobmarket is a shitshow here in Sweden now tho, few people are getting hired, companies "can't find" anyone to hire bc they want unicorns and you read about bigger layoffs a few times a month.
All the while our politicians are ruining our welfare..
I'm honestly barely coping. I'm so glad I have my partner (who also struggle to get a job) and two cats.
I'm going to the gym twice a week, bake sometimes, cook daily sleep quite a bit as I'm tired all the time. I'm kind of just trying to stay active and stick to routines.
I've recently started seeing a psychiatrist as well
Was laid off in 2001 during the dotcom bust. Was self-unemployed buying and selling used docking stations and power adapters until 2007 when I aced a job interview for a small start up after mostly giving up the job search. Six months at the startup gave me experience in an in-demand tech stack that landed me a job at a large tech company that saw me through to retirement 10 years later.
If I had it to do over right now I would be creating something with AI as my own business - probably not very lucrative but good experience that might get you hired someplace.
Quit big tech after a decade in the industry about 30 months ago. At the time it was supposed to be a "break" because I was badly disillusioned with the meaningfulness of what I was doing, and in some ways where the industry had shifted over that time period. But then, we looked over our finances as a no-kids household with a combined 35-years of work in the tech industry (which of course is a very fortunate situation to be in) and decided we can retire.
So that's where I'm at right now. I've spent this time picking up new hobbies (currently 3D modelling, branching out to add some electronics elements right now), programming board game probability aids for fun, learning some university level courses from my partner and teaching her some myself, getting more active (my last month has been the best physical shape I've been in since university).
My personal project list keeps growing, so I have plenty to tackle and "keep me busy". Though I do want to move on from toy personal stuff to more meaty stuff in the near future. Yet, figuring out the exact nature of that is a work in progress currently.
I was unemployed for 6 months after my first job after college stopped abruptly due to bankruptcy & corruption of upper management. Ended up going back to university to get a grad degree on top, then spent 5 months unemployed after that. Ended up joining a small startup some friends were building, wasn't much fun. Left after a year, spend another 8 months unemployed then landed my dream job through dumb luck. In all of those periods, I tried to cope via lots of applications or lost myself in spirals of reduced social contacts and lots of video games. Worked on some personal tech projects, dabbled in robotics, tried to help write a book... I am very happy with and grateful for where I am right now. At the same time, reading the posts here brought back strong emotions & memories. My heart goes out to all of you searching, don't let it get to you! You are all valuable human beings, and life always involves some element of luck. Plus all of recruiting is very dehumanising and degrading, no-one should be ghosted, ignored or lied to on this scale. Things get better eventually and it's ok to feel down and powerless, just remember you are not alone in this!
Im’ve helped a german immigrant find work before he lost is visa for working/studying due to job loss. Applied 400+ times within 6 months. No results. Then, we iterated in 2 session across 2 weeks. He did 60 applications after that and got a few interviews and finally laded a job 3 weeks later.
Listen and follow carefully:
(1) Fill the current gap in your CV with “Job Sabbatical”, make it span up to now. Else people will be put off by the fact you didn’t find work.
(2) Id you want, send me your CV and I’ll audit. 30% of cases people focus on the wrong stuff, 50% they don’t sell it well (presentation, communication, annecdotes) and the other 20% is not sticking to cultural norms / non-CV related stuff
My husband. Financially we’re fine, because he wasn’t in tech anyway and made 1/4 of what I do. Emotionally I’m really starting to resent it (he is not on the “I sent out 1000 resumes” track, he’s made a lot of progress in EVE).
My non-expert advice is to kindly communicate this early, before it becomes a deeper problem that blows up suddenly one day. If money isn't a concern, it at least opens up a wider selection of options for how you two can share duties. Best of luck to you both.
My ex-wife didn’t have a my stable job the last ~6 years of our marriage. She would find a job, say it made her feel miserable, and quit within months.
She would often be “dragging her feet” when it came to applying for jobs.
I’m convinced it’s part of why our marriage failed, it created a lot of tension between us. It’s not the only cause, but it contributed. I’m not sure what I could have done differently, but I empathize with your situation.
You've got every right to resent it if he's not at least maintaining the household and providing a better home life for the two of you in lieu of additional income.
There's no shame in being a homemaker, and heck, I'd do it myself if I had a partner that could provide for the two of us. Cooking, cleaning, laundry, landscaping, repairs, upkeep, finances...I like the appeal, but that's because I like the job of a homemaker. It might be worth broaching that topic with your partner, see if maybe they can begin contributing in that sense. You're less likely to resent someone who has a home-cooked meal for you when you get home most nights of the week, or the laundry being washed, folded, and ironed.
And if they balk at such a notion, well...there's more data for you to act upon in your relationship. Either way, you'll feel like you're moving forward instead of stuck in place.
Just an eRando's two cents. YMMV, take with a grain of salt, etc.
> You've got every right to resent it if he's not at least maintaining the household and providing a better home life for the two of you in lieu of additional income.
The parent comment didn't mention that at all.
> And if they balk at such a notion, well...there's more data for you to act upon in your relationship.
Wild how quickly a comment about someone's husband being out of work but applying for jobs jumps to assumptions that he's a deadbeat and suggestions to "act upon" it.
whenever i see stories about people sending out that many resumes, i'm confused how they've found so many jobs to apply to. i'm pretty sure it's only possible if you completely ignore the job description and requirements and just apply to everything. in which case... no wonder it doesn't work
MMOs in general, but EVE in particular, make you feel like you're part of something, which can be a huge comfort when you lose a job and some sense of self-esteem. Not to justify his behavior at all - I'd highly recommend getting him away from EVE - but I wanted to point it out.
“Working” on quests in video games can feel very rewarding. Quitting EVE might be a good idea but I think should be complemented with something equally rewarding because otherwise they might feel empty and slide back into it. Developing that rewarding feeling might take time though.
Retired - sort of - when the remains of my last two start-ups died (in the same month!) after the pandemic and were sold for OK money. Now doing a part-time PhD working fixing the climate.
Coping - generally fine - helped by building up a new network of friends and doing things like going clubbing and going to music festivals and giving talks and running voluntary orgs. Just been out for beers with my mentee; he will be giving a talk at a session that I am running tomorrow with the local council.
You can work on climate fixes quietly within a current role (eg write more efficient code, scheduling non-critical stuff away from demand peaks towards generation peaks, ... #frugalComputing) or maybe move to a role which has some explicit climate goals.
There are so many things to work on, some can be tackled as a start-up, which is HN territory! My last start-up developed a domestic heating control to save energy by setting back temperatures a little when a room is empty and likely to stay empty for a while. There's >500k units installed.
My PhD is finding how to best improve decarbonisaton of UK home heating (~14% of UK GHGs). Mainly by replacing gas boilers with heat pumps. Did my own at the end of last year.
Got laid off with the rest of my colleagues in February 2025, been searching for a job for 6 months. I was applying to 2 jobs per day on average, 400 in total; and making test assignments. Interviews were a rare thing until July-August. Or maybe I just reworked CV well enough to this moment.
Meanwhile, I focused on learning trending tools and skills, and was coping by working on DIY projects involving 3D modelling and printing, electronics, programming. Wife was very supportive during that time <3
Around the end of August I got the first offer, and two weeks later another better one.
Market is awful. Much worse than the last time I was looking for a job, 5 years ago.
For anyone here struggling with being unemployed and not finding a job, I’d suggest looking into “never search alone”. It’s a book and program to develop a system for finding your next job along with a community and support system.
It’s free beyond the cost of the book (which you can probably find in your public library) and has helped thousands.
Recently, I found out a couple of friends were looking for jobs and I convinced them into creating a joint notion database for companies, job positions, networking events etc... So far I think it's been positive, it makes the job search less isolating and it certainly helps to see further away in the market
I'm hitting 2 years after a massive layoff at my previous job. I've worked in more or less all the major languages and tech stacks doing fullstack web + cloud infra + desktop apps for startups in various sectors.
First year was an intentional "sabbatical" after never taking longer than a 1 week long vacation in seven years of full time SWE.
Second year... Well, I've applied to probably around 500 jobs this year, from the smallest to the largest companies, and I've gotten ONE video call interview. And as much as I would want to thank that one VP Eng at that one company for even interviewing me, after the interviewer directly told me that I aligned with what they were looking to hire for the role, and that I would be scheduled for technical interviews the next week, I ended up *ghosted*. Not even a rejection email.
Of my IRL SWE friends, I know many like myself who have been laid off and can't find new work (it seems like the longer the gap gets, the more it self-reinforcingly leads employers to think you're damaged goods); I know others who have been laid off and found new work within a month or two; and I know a few who are continuing to climb the comp ladder at big saas corps, seemingly completely unaffected by the job market.
The strangest thing to me about this wave of SWE unemployment is that it seems to be totally violative of supply and demand. Yes, I know that all SWE workers aren't equal fungible goods, but I would have thought that there are tiers or specializations inside of which there can be some rough supply and demand. Yet, I haven't gotten any lowball job offers - just complete lack of interest.
For past context, I didn't even have to apply for my last 2 jobs - a technical leader at each company (CTO, Dir Eng, etc) reached out to me unsolicited after finding my resume on a job board.
3 years. Left work because I felt comfortable with finances and family life, but wanted to try something different. It’s been fun working on personal projects and sharpening old tools. Still figuring out what I want to do long term. Some ideas include becoming a CFP because I like helping people with their finances, working for a tech company in that domain, or expanding the personal project (jch.app) and building more community.
In a good headspace now, right after the first year was feeling lost on where to go next.
> In a good headspace now, right after the first year was feeling lost on where to go next.
Glad to hear. I had a similar experience, people act like "being in transition" where you are unsure what is next is solveable in a month, maybe three months. After that first year I still felt so unsure what I was supposed to do.
I'm in that phase somewhat right now. 30 months in, I'm still kinda unsure what I'd like to do. I know going back to a big enterprise software firm is bit of a last resort at this point, I just cannot convince myself that work is meaningful. Thankfully I'm financially secure (for now, who knows how the global trade shenanigans will actually affect my retirement funds), so there's no urgency to jump headfirst into another job. Yet, despite having plenty to do in terms of side projects, it would be a lie to say I don't feel that I need to do something more meaningful with my time.
Yes. Last full time software development job was in 2017, under the most abusive manager I've ever had in my 20+ years in tech. Took a full year out just for psychotherapy. Unfortunately, the subsequent years had me branded with that "employment gap" stigma that recruiters and hiring managers can't see past.
I'm now doing temp office work for my local government. I actually prefer the job setting, aside from the low pay. I would encourage everyone to try getting work in their own local governments, especially around big events like elections, when there's need for a lot of people at once.
Couple years back I walked away from a company that IPO’ed, cashed out enough to not worry about rent or food for the next 20–30 years. I swore off jobs, told myself I’d build something of my own. But I haven’t built anything. Haven’t even tried applying anywhere, too stubborn for that. Most days I just circle around ideas, start, stop, drop. Repeat. Money isn’t the problem—it’s this gnawing restlessness, this sense that I’m wasting what could have been momentum. I don’t know what I’m building, and that not-knowing is eating me more than anything else.
Most people underappreciate how tough it is to get yourself motivated & creating anything when the structure of a job falls away. Its fine to go take a job, just for the structure/mental stimulation it provides.
If you do take a job, I wouldn't be surprised if you eventually find a passion project that'll make everything fall into place. Its ok that it takes time to discover that passion.
(I took 2 years off for an entrepreneurial project. Finished it in the first year, bummed around purposeless for the next one. Went back to work early. 15 years later, beginning to get curious/driven again.)
It’s not like I haven’t considered getting a job — I’ve gone through this exact cycle so many times I’ve lost count. The job hunt feels dismaying, so I default to chasing ideas. It feels right for a while… until I’m back at the same question: is a job what I needed all along? My better self honestly craves structure, waking up with a clear, singular goal.
Yep.
I'm an Electrical Engineer, 10+ years of experience in systems (automation, robotics, etc.). I left my job back in 2023, which I regret now, but I didn't leave because it wasn't paying well (it was low wage), or anything, but because of the management and daily harassment. However, I should have let them terminate me instead to collect unemployment.
The first few months I spent trying to make my own work, since my tech background is great, but really, that led to nowhere, especially in this economy (Canada), so I started looking for a job. Now 1.5 years of active searching and only 4 interviews, yes, only 4 where the job description was as if it was written to match my resume, yet I got rejected, just to see how bad it is, compared to before until 2021. I used to get contacted for jobs, some were in big companies like Amazon for 180k. All other applications just go to the void, or cliché "we went with another candidate" but the posting remains open 3 months later. Sometimes I would receive the rejection two hours after applying after midnight, so it's just automated.
It's been tough, mentally demoralizing and I borderline went suicidal at some point. Even now, if some burglar came to shoot me in the face I wouldn't even flinch, completely hopeless, not because of not finding a job, but because of 15+ years of education and experience and you are just invisible, no matter how you perfect the resume or whatever. Meanwhile I see fresh co-op students are hired in good companies and good positions, mostly girls too, making me believe that HR (mostly women) and managers (mostly men) prefer hiring fresh especially women for all sorts of reasons, and also company-wise too because they can pay them peanuts without an issue. I deeply regret becoming an engineer, waste of time and money. If I had invested that in other education or even becoming a plumber I would be in a better position now.
The plan right now is to find anything, work and save a little then completely change my career, no more engineering or tech stuff despite my passion in this field, but if it doesn't pay bills, it's becoming like an art degree now, especially when the industry doesn't have any measure to protect the profession. Anyone can be an engineer, meanwhile I see a nurse (which seen as the janitor of healthcare jobs) is paid ~90k on par with a senior engineer, if you found the job anyway. You know something is not right, hell, even a landscaper makes better than that. Leaving Canada isn't an option right now due to some reasons.
Your first hand experience with how brutal the job market is is real. And it definitely feels like zero sum when it comes down to "a woman gets hired for reasons over me" but i must call out how dangerous this line of thinking becomes.
Also obviously not anyone can become an engineer. please don't be so dismissive of others.
if you're willing to put in the learning to become a plumber that seems like a positive path forward.
I don't know but among healthcare practitioner apparently it's seen like that. It's brutal, but out of all white collar jobs, only engineering is suffering, and especially males, yes, women are hired for 'reasons' over males, you can check any unemployment rate between males/females, now it's called he-cession https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2025-08-05/us-job...
What is the ratio of females posting not finding jobs in social media compared to males? I personally never seen a single female complaining not finding a job, instead, they are dancing in the jobs for tiktok and posting how their 'lazy girl job' is going, meanwhile for guys, it's all over the place, especially in tech/engineering.
Engineering isn't guarded as a profession, there's no designation like other white collar jobs that you need to pass and have to be called an engineer, the 'engineer' term is so diluted that it's meaningless now, and even to be a plumper, you should have apprenticeship to practice it, it's even more guarded than engineer. Total waste of time to be an engineer, my advise to anyone who's getting in the field or thinking about it, do NOT, you are better dancing on tiktok than wasting your life in a useless degree.
My friend, don’t swallow the red pill and definitely avoid the black pill.
Janitors and cleaners of all kinds are essential workers. And nurses keep you alive. Both type of workers add more value to society than I do (working on products to make numbers go up).
Your evidence is all anecdotal. Go om LinkedIn and you see plenty of posts by women who are also struggling.
If you want to be mad at someone then be mad at the Epstein class not at your fellow class mates.
In 2019 I left my cushy job because I wanted $$$ but couldn't push myself to leetcode.
I spent much of that year on personal projects and family before I could seriously commit myself. Then covid happened.
It took 2.5yr before I worked again, in FAANG. There were many moments of feeling down and alone.
I'm unemployed again, 3 months now, this time after being laid off. I wish I could just concentrate my efforts on developing products and monetizing them. But since I have a family to support, I decided to spend time on these projects only to reward myself for grinding leetcode & system design.
I haven't been quite unemployed, but I have been doing fractional and other gig based work for nearly 2.
Sometimes it feels like the sum of all the little projects I've been working on amounts to nothing, and I wouldn't even know how to go through a full-time job interview process again. Freaks me out.
Yes, I'm exactly that situation. Mid-40s. My background is in finance - investment banking. I spent 16 years at the same firm, before being actively recruited over to an industry-leading bank but in an adjacent sector (UHNW lending). Less than a year into that, I was laid off as part of a large reduction in force. "Sorry, last in first out, here's two weeks". Thankfully the RIF was large enough that it triggered a WARN Notice, so I got an additional 3 months out of it.
I've gone through my network multiple times, asked for referrals, have applied to 2,000+ job openings that I've seen on LinkedIn, have tried networking meetings, you name it. I'm in NYC and not geographically mobile (raising 2 kids, divorced), but I've applied to jobs in FL, Chicago, etc where I would try to make it work being in an office part time around my schedule. I've applied to totally different sectors.
The recruiting merry-go-around is brutal. ATS to enter resume data, automatic rejection emails (sometimes within under 24h!). The "what have you done the last two years" question kills me -- I've looked for a job, that's what I've done.
I spent fifteen months unemployed during the Great Recession, in a state that was hostile to LGBTQ people, with no local support network beyond a family that I wasn’t out to. I ended up draining all my savings just to survive before finally taking up a friend on their offer of assistance.
How I coped?
* I helped run a gaming community. I threw myself into the work full time, building up a great gaming server with strong player count. This gave me social connection in an area I couldn’t openly be myself in.
* I minimized expenses, including buying delivery meals (lack of an inspected car) and making one delivery stretch two to three days' worth of meals (~$1.50 a meal back then)
The one regret is I didn’t take my friend up on their help sooner. It meant relocating to a new city, but within two weeks of putting their address on my resume I had found new work. Not stellar work, but good enough to close out my old place, pack up stuff to storage, and move out to the new city.
Definitely take up friends on their offers of help. For resumes especially, borrowing a friend’s address can give you a “local” presence and make you a better candidate. Don’t feel bad taking a career step downward if it saves your ass in the immediate - there will always be opportunities to move up again later.
You’re not alone in this. It sucks, supremely sucks ass, but you’re not a failure just because the market is in a downswing. Don’t beat yourself up over things out of your control.
There is a light at the end of this tunnel. You’ll make it.
Got laid off 2 weeks ago (8YOE). How are there so many engineers out of work for >2 years? Should I conclude that my time is better spent searching for a non-eng job?
YMMV. See what 2-3 months of job searching does for you, then investigate rewarding alternatives so you have the beginning of a plan B. If your main area of expertise is Go or TS, fullstack, React, AI, don't wait 2-3 months as the supply/demand is greatly titled.
This is my 12th month. I quit due to the birth of my son, and honestly he has kept me plenty busy for now. The hardest part for me is the lack of friends who are in the same situation.
lived extremely frugally my entire life and continued to do so while unemployed, combined with being very fortunate with high rates of return in my 401k for the past 15 years
You just pay the tax. 10% early withdrawal penalty plus about 10% federal income tax up to about $50k. Obviously it would be nice to not have to pay that tax at all by waiting until retirement age, but depending on your cost basis and your other income, it's less than you would have paid in income tax at the time of deposit plus short term cap gains at the time of withdrawal if you had not put it in the 401k in the first place. If your previous wage was high enough and cost basis low enough, then it might even be less than income tax at time of deposit plus long term cap gains at time of withdrawal.
Thanks for this thread. So many people blame the less successful for their lack of success and pretend it’s not half the bell curve but some tiny minority.
I left my job in 2021 to start a business. I just launched it, but I still don’t have a steady income. I’m living with my wife, and still have enough to get by for a couple more years, but I’m really hoping my business can start making money.
I still have my good job but in case I lose it I am going to lie and lie and lie to get any job just going to flip burgers or whatever and send them CV cut out without degree and without accomplishments.
I was laid off at a small tech company mid July and found another job with a friend at another small company in mid September. I thought maybe I wouldn’t find another job for a while, but it took me about 2 months with a very significant (40%) pay cut. I like the company pretty well, but I’m still hoping for something more. We’ll see.
took me 10 months and I'm a run of the mill guy. Just make sure to apply a lot, I think too many people look for well fitting jobs but my idea is the first one that gives any offer is usually good enough
Having watched colleagues land jobs where they had almost no experience in (what were apparently) key areas of the job description. I would advise to apply to anything that looks interesting to you, and fluff your CV. The job descriptions are fluffed to death so no harm.
Last year, I decided to leave the small agency where I had worked for almost 6 years because, being a family-owned business, it was terrible for everybody (except for the bootlickers). The first few months were decent, having time to do almost anything, but then I started to feel miserable seeing how my bank account was getting close to empty and not receiving any calls from my job applications. Job searching has to be one of the worst experiences I have ever had, but my blog (alprado.com) was an incredibly therapeutic tool.
Left my job in 2022, thought I was going to just take a short break. Been applying to jobs but I really struggle to find something that motivates me enough to pass the interviews. Probably have gone through 20 processes. Got one offer, but also managed to get a grant to work on my side project for the last year, so I did that instead. We see what next year will look like, but I am not too optimistic honestly.
I find this mentality very strange but maybe it’s because I don’t have as much saved as I’d like to have. If I were out of work I’d find significant motivation to do whatever I could to pass an interview and at least make some money while looking for something better.
I don't know. It's all a mix of factors, but it's basically "been there, done that". The last times I was really excited about the jobs, nowadays I have this doom feeling it will be the same experience over again. Maybe burnout, maybe being too privileged to fail and still somehow make ends.
That said, I forced being motivated, and I did whatever took, and still failed interviews. So, now I know it's not on my hands to pass or not.
This means that this person isn't desperate enough to make money. Otherwise, they would have taken any job.
But I also understand them, if they don't like the offering and also have enough money or don't have to have a job to reside in their country then why not.
Left my job on the East Coast in 2023 when my F1-OPT expired. Returned to my home country to recuperate, focus on my mental and physical health, shrug off the perpetual anxiety, etc. Married my now wife who was still building her career in the US, moved back here, and I'm waiting on my work authorisation. Can't say I'm too chuffed about being here right now, but c'est la vie.
Longer than two years, for pre-COVID reasons mostly. Not coping too well..
It sure would be nice if one of those bitcoin millionaires came out of nowhere willing to sponsor me. I'd love to focus on open source, without worrying about making rent or eating this month.
Been unemployed a little over one year. Backend engineer/SRE with 20+ years of experience somewhere in Western Europe.
I didn't scatter shot submit my CV to everything under the sun - tried to keep it in my current area of residence, with the technology stack that I actually want to pursue.
I applied for around 4-5 jobs a month (which included tuning CV and cover letters for each of them). I got around 10 interviews during all this time, so far being rejected across the board, mostly with pretty risible reasons. This number includes both rejections after first screening call, or after technical interviews. (As an example, one company - to which I reached from one of the HN jobs threads - rejected me for doing a manual Pythagoras calculation for computing some coordinates instead of using a library.)
In the past month or so I've finally started getting more invitations back instead of being ghosted or getting generic "we're moving on with more suitable candidates", so things are looking more promising.
Overall I'm not worried, I have a good support network, and I keep preoccupied with open source stuff.
The only problem is that the latest rejections kinda dented my self esteem a little, but I hope that's temporary. :)
Thirteen years. Maybe not what you were expecting to hear.
It's hard to remember beyond vignettes, but around when I left my last regular job it felt like my world was collapsing. I'd drifted out of a relationship, I was struggling with mental health just as my physical health was improving, my social and political environment started feeling uncomfortable, the small startup I worked for was struggling to pay me (at all, let alone on time), and Mom's illness was becoming terminal (eventually I lost Dad too) and I moved back home to help look after her.
Even before that my employment record had been kinda spotty but I was blessed to have a supportive family and very frugal habits that let me start building up some savings. But I also definitely counted some unhatched chickens. At first, putting the world of employment completely out of my mind was part of how I coped with the stress. Then I started deluding myself that I was "semi-retired". By the time reality fully hit me, the self-doubt from the existing gap in my resume was self-reinforcing. And my "professional network" feels like a joke now.
I'm trying to shake myself out of it, force myself to build a portfolio and go looking again. It's brutal, though. Hard to even find the words for this post, and read them back and wonder what I'm doing with/to myself. And the world is different, too. Even without thinking about AI. I have deep expertise in some tech stuff but no obvious way to show it off (of course I want to write good code rather than clever code). I don't want to do all this new "web 2.0" (is it 3.0 now?) stuff. It looks and feels awful to me, on every level. I just want to make simple, practical, really well designed tools (it was strangely hard to phrase that).
> It's brutal, though. Hard to even find the words for this post, and read them back and wonder what I'm doing with/to myself. And the world is different, too.
I feel this. I don't know if I can/will post. I wish you the best of luck.
Yes, laid off in 2023 and haven't found a tech job since. Due to significant life and family health circumstances, anything that isn't a career job is hard to justify while caring for myself and others.
I've spent the last two years volunteering a local bike co-op and getting way to into bike building and cycling generally. Additionally, I spend a lot of time doing what I can to help my local trans community (that I am a part of). This work has gifted me with perspectives I would never have seen otherwise, and has really helped my organizational and soft skills.
Tech wise, I only do hobby projects now, and it's really wonderful in some ways. Having the professional experience I do, but the free time to work on projects that I want has helped me learn so much and really push my understanding of all sorts of technology.
When the job market eventually gets better, I will be able to approach it with a confidence that I didn't feel was earned before. That's really my cope lol
Why do you think anyone would want to hire you when things get better vs people that are „more in the game“, like experienced people without a career gap?
Not asking to be mean, asking because I am afraid of that happening to me and looking for perspective.
Gaps are not worth worrying about unless you have < 5 years exp. At least no one has ever mentioned it. My career is long so experience is just a summary anyway. Use years only and learn how to freelance (or look like it) during lean times.
I guess it depends on who reads it but I don't see any issue with it. FWIW - I'm not a recruiter it manager but I've been an interviewer at various tech companies.
My impression from the resume is that she's relatively junior with limited experience, but not zero, and her experience is in unsexy tech stacks, and she did a bootcamp. So she is fighting am uphill battle in a tough market. But I don't get the impression that she's unprofessional or immature because of the whimsical website.
I'm any case, I wish her luck, and I believe that there are roles out there that would be a good fit for her and she can gain more experience. She just needs that first break... Which is hard to get
Did you read her website on your phone or your computer? It looks mostly fine on the phone (the CV page at least) but it is really bad on any larger screen.
The longest was 20 months last year. In this market with GenAI and an uncertain U.S. administration, it’s not likely to improve for years.
I would recommend everyone hunker down and do what you need to survive, including selling things and moving to lower cost locations and combining assets with family where possible.
Throwaway, to do away with the polite fiction that I usually present.
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your hometown
/ Waiting for someone or something to show you the way
At 11 I started writing software, with entrepreneurial aspirations helped by my parents. Over my teen years I must have designed a dozen sites I never published. I did alright in school, but I was never on time. At 18, out of high school, I got my first job. I moved to the city, went to college, and flunked out. I couldn't get up for class on time, I couldn't understand the "basic high school review" math course.
So, at 19 I moved back home, worked a year, and moved back to the city to work as a developer. I applied here and there, there was never much interest. I got comfortable, and although ashamed to sickness, I managed to spend the pandemic years not working at all. I suppose my ego and immaturity "prevented" me from working a regular job.
At 23 I moved back to my home town, to work my 3rd job ever, as a cleaner alongside a bunch of teens. After a year of that, I moved to a new big city, swallowed my pride and immediately got another cleaning job. I hoped to move on from that, maybe to software, maybe some new calling.
A new life circumstance hit me like a truck, and I had a very dark year. Stayed at that minimum wage job. 24, 25, moved back home.
The last year I've been trying to improve, taking online courses, going to the gym, building a piece of software that has real value, as in, can actually make money. But, well, I have a hard time believing anything has much of value. I'm 26 now. Spent most of my year "improving", a small portion working.
I maintain the polite fiction because I don't like people asking me why I do the things I do, I don't really know. I guess I do what's easy. A younger me would've chalked it up to "trauma", "anxiety", "depression", or some DSM-able disorder. An older me doesn't believe that at all. But I barely work, don't drive, and I really isolate myself. This was all quite bad before, but after the "circumstance", the last point is especially true.
I know how to get out of the "not working" cycle, I have to get a job first-and-foremost. But I don't know how to get out of the isolation cycle, it's been getting worse and worse. I try and read up on it, but all the advice is about "making friends". That's not really my issue. I feel like an alien, and most everyone drives me insane. Well, at least I can appreciate Kafka.
(After all that, I've never made a dime on software)
To get out of the isolation cycle you have to stop isolating yourself.
Go for a walk and talk to a stranger. I talked to a random dude for 45 mins the other day and he showed me all the fish he’s caught. Epic.
Sounds like you like software. Go to a software meet up and geek out.
The friends will come but even a 5 min conversation can have a huge impact on your psyche so just get out there in a way that you feel comfortable with.
The issue is deeper, I think. When I go to software meetups, I feel bitter. I used to have friends in technology, but most of them I cut off without a word, and those that reach out I resent. When I'm outside of my hometown, I feel like I can't relate to anyone, and when I'm back... it's hard to describe. I'd rather disappear than have anyone see or think about me. It's hard to even go get groceries now. I used to have "my people", but now I don't have anyone (except a few family members, -ish) that fits that. The common denominator, of course, is me.
I have times of regularity, where I'm charismatic and talking with people. But even then I find that all my stories end with "... that person drives me crazy!" ... Well of course they do, seems like everyone does.
The faults I judge the most in people are the ones I struggle with, or ones I've seen other loved ones struggle with where I wasn't able to help. I want to be kind, to be empathetic really, but I feel so afraid, so incapable of helping, guiding, or even listening empathetically in any way that my reactions are ...bad. Unkind, or alien.
Backpacking was nice. As for nature, my town is in the thick of it, so I'm alone in nature quite a lot. That's one reason I return, I really miss it in the city.
I've been in fact outside of my home for some weeks, visiting a sibling in a different country and helping with the new baby and other household stuff. It's been a bit stressful (hard to have structure when you're sleeping on the couch and there's a newborn), but mostly quite nice to be part of a whole. I help out with the baby, cook, socialize, and work on my software when I have time. I wish I could've had more structure, but the "limited time" aspect is a great motivator.
Now I'm heading back home, and that worries me. It feels like I've been outside in the fresh air --to a degree-- and now I'm opening the windowless, stuffy shed and walking back inside for the winter. I do have to go back, even if I'm to leave I need to make some money to launch myself out. But it's like a tar pit of the mind.
It seems like the problem is the home and your parents.
Think about it logically, if you had a kid would you let them end up like you?
You need like some complete psychological and lifestyle reset. Consider joining the military, volunteering in Africa, working on an oilrig, anything as long as it's extreme. Like, whatever most firmly cuts off your whole thread of lived experience and mindset so far but which has structure you can hang on to.
Also find an aggressive therapist who'll get in there and work out what's going on and clean it up, and pay them whatever they ask.
i also thought i wasnt disabled/traumatized for a long time until i came across reading material of symptoms that perfectly described me, and life experiences that perfectly match my own.
trauma and disability can look like a lot of things, and the things in your life that you may think aren't a big deal actually can be, and you have no idea because you've never had it any other way.
realizing i have intense trauma and C-PTSD and a real disability made me shame myself so significantly less, and while it doesnt make me act like a victim or that im helpless, it gives me a butt load of compassion for myself. because the real basic things that people find easy, i find difficult, and to get the same results requires 3x more effort for me. people can view this as me being lazy when in reality im working much harder than they are.
not trying to diagnose you. maybe just keep an open mind, because the way your life is operating is not typical, and there's probably reasons for that.
I am not stopping until I am a successful entrepreneur. I refuse to go back to a full-time software job. I have had to do some long stints freelancing or agency work to make ends meet. Gotta do what you gotta do.
But I'm not going back or stopping until I make it.
It's a bit vindicating seeing the volume of responses to this. It's possible this is a biased sample and not representative of the majority, but it's nice to know I'm not alone and at least 1 other has experienced exactly what I have.
I was always made to feel fundamentally broken, and I wondered if I was really that terrible. I had no clue why I was treated with such malice and made to feel so unwanted.
Adding my story to the hat - graduated in 2022, naively thinking the world was eager for new contributors, and having finished my degree, I could start working on interesting real-world problems right away. Instead, I got nowhere and spiraled into the most severe self-doubt, worthlessness, and depression in my 20-something years of life.
I had the opportunity to learn and contribute through volunteering, joining my first organization in 2023. Used to be a full-time thing, even what one may consider overtime. Now, I'm kinda spread thin with projects, and also done everything important to where the projects are in maintenance mode.
But finally having that proof - that I could learn, contribute, and do well. I think it was life-changing. Yet judgement and imposter syndrome still hits like - "well, you didn't get paid, so it doesn't mean anything. That's not real work experience." Heard that's basically what someone said about my CV.
Did a smaller project across 3 months, then joined a third org in 2024. Obviously, not pulling 40+ volunteer hours a week anymore, but I still do what I can. Big progress through small changes, doing more in less time, and all that.
I got to work on these projects, learn a few lessons, and I can now bring my ideas to life using what I know. It's relieving to have some control over my endeavors finally. I don't really need a tech job anymore, because I've gained the insight I once thought I could only get from having one.
Technically, I'm employed, but it's on the retail floor. Though I was unemployed for 27 months beforehand, over 3 years without starting what I once thought would be my career. And I'm about to be on the search again.
I think more physical jobs are catching my interest. I'm just focused on seeking novel experiences and further knowledge to broaden my horizons.
It's easy see from your articulation, your conveying thoughts across a long arc you are the real deal. Just from reading your writing I'd put you high on my list.
Keep your head up! What you’re up against isn’t a reflection of your worth but the state of things right now. That doesn't make the situation any better but it does mean it’s not a judgment against you and hopefully knowing that makes it easier to keep your head up high!
Thank you! Admittedly, I often worry my writing comes off as self-centered, rambling, or pedantic... but eh. Perhaps it's better to try than not. I'm sure time will resolve all, in one way or another...
They only seem to call it 'aspirational peerage' when you're young, but when you're established, you still need to find and figure out what others ahead of you are doing so you have an idea about what you might be doing when you get there.
Start a blog and have chatGPT write something ambitious before each rejection.
I just do some preparation walk into the building and announce i want to work there. You dont even have to pay me. Ik im still heren by the end of the month we talk. Stop thinking about it, we have work to do!
This is not a great formula but it is a great filter for the kind of company I want to work for. If it cant detect a good deal im out.
been jobless since nov 2022, been taking gig jobs after obtaining SO/PI licences. dont believe there are jobs for people of my age in the market, no matter the education qualifications or experience
I can't help but feel like a lot of commenters would benefit from such things.
Working in an Amazon warehouse for example, being a labourer of some kind (removalist for example). It really is a luxury to sit in front of a keyboard and monitor and think and solve problems and get paid for it.
I've been in my current job for 6 years but I'm on leave at the moment and look to take a few months off next year caring for our newborn.
Yep. Quit my job a little over two years ago being massively burnt out. It started as an intentional sabbatical but ive been casually applying to jobs for the past two years, maybe like a handful a month on average, and now two+ years out i've gone through 3/4ths of my savings (including retirement savings) and applying to jobs daily and really struggling to find anything I feel capable of doing. Both bc my resume is a bit of a red flag, but also the industry isn't great, and i'm not a super competitive candidate to begin with. Trying to find something that's literally just, like, $80k a year. Which is $40k less than my last job. i was a (mediocre) web developer for 15+ years and it seems like my skillset is basically zero at this point, bc anyone can find mediocre devs at a fraction of the price globally.
Moved to bay area a few weeks despite the cost, both bc i want to be here, but also hoping that maybe some in-person networking pays off and i can find something. i'd honestly be happy being an office manager, i don't need a high paying dev job. but even stuff like office manager requires 5+ years experience doing that.
It was 16 months for me in engineering management but then I wasn’t really looking for the first 6 months so probably closer to 10 months. Been employed for over a year now with a drastic pay increase.
Best time of my life honestly, after 15 years of working. I realized I get 0 pleasure from working and have plenty of things to occupy me if I wasn’t. I learned I don’t need a purpose in life. What I really love is running, woodworking, reading, eating, lifting weights, traveling and spending time with my family.
(1) Big issue, barriers to entry: In the US, for plumbers, electricians, lawn maintainers, ..., they get little competition, i.e., no supply from more than, say, 100 miles away and, thus, none from Asia or Europe.
E.g., a guy down the street was injured so needed someone to mow his grass. My older brother had the job, was too busy with college, so I got the job. They kept asking me to accept a higher fee, but I was afraid I didn't deserve it and didn't want to disappoint my customer. The guy had a next door neighbor who called me to weed their garden. Another guy had an overgrown hedge and called me to cut it back. Another customer had a hedge about 3' high and for neighborhood status wanted it cut to a perfect box and asked me .... Didn't realize that customers were calling ME -- in business, a dream situation, but at 16 didn't appreciate that.
Instead, could have gotten some books on Horticulture 101. With a little marketing, e.g., business cards, a sign could display when working on a yard, a professional look, have the neighbors compete for the best looking yards and proud to be paying my high fees for status, .... Work by "Appointment Only", and maybe by the season only. In a few weeks could have made money enough for a year of college tuition, but college, already had a better career than college offered.
(2) In the US, during the Cold War and the beginning of computing, at least around DC, employers were desperate for anyone with talent, interest, and any experience at all in computing, demand was much greater than supply, and for a job just look in The Washington Post, ..., and have a job in a week.
(3) Still in the US, by the 1990s, some big companies would fire half their computing experts, then could send 1000 resumes and go for years without a job -- could wish could swap AI expertise, background in teaching computer science in college, relevant Bachelor's, Master's and Ph.D. degrees for a slot as an apprentice plumber -- literally, no exaggeration.
Evidence: For a career, a Ph.D., publications in AI, etc. can be worse than a felony conviction. Literally.
If 1000 resumes and more than a year looking for a job, then conclude no fish in that lake and need to look elsewhere.
But college is MUCH better than grass mowing? In the US, not necessarily!
Lesson: Start a business, maybe even one exploiting some aspects of computing and even with some barriers to entry or plumbing, grass mowing, ....
I think I'm burned out, but I'm not sure. Sometimes I think getting laid off might be good for me, but being in my mid-forties worries me when Tech is so ageist.
Unfortunately if you're asking this of yourself you are almost certainly burned out. Speaking as someone currently thinking the same thing -- all the times in my career where I was powering through this sort of thing never crossed my mind, it's only come up more recently as the hours have begun to climb.
Being middle age is a risk for sure, but also keep in mind you have only one or two big changes left before you're done. It matters more to get into a spot that can take you where you need to go.
Hmm, I don't know Chris, I've read your comments here over the years and I get the feeling that any company that hired you would be in a good place with you on their team.
There's a lot of bad hiring teams, though. So, I totally get it. Retirement is also nice if you can afford it.
I'm only about 4 weeks into unemployment, but I'm helping a friend who's a year in. Were both very junior and that Canada job market's a bit brutal right now.
On the plus side, were trying to be very scientific about our approach, and have been hosting sessions every morning where we apply for 2-3 jobs documenting the entire process and sharing encouragement and hoping to avoid burnout.
I've been thinking of opening this job hunting session to more people so we can start collecting some really good data on exactly how hard it is to get a job, and maybe help get a better understanding of what strategies are most effective when looking for a job. If you're interested I'm collecting some feedback here: https://forms.office.com/r/kKk7e6Wvre
Wonder if this is a coincidence that the other major discussion item on the front page is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45305845 (Trump to impose $100k fee for H-1B worker visas, White House says) with the large majority seemingly disagreeing with the policy and sort encouraging ramping up H-1Bs and such since it's generally great for the country. But then I see a lot of young grads and unemployed laid off folks and am trying to figure out if and how the two issues are related.
Are people who look for jobs asking for too much money? They are not qualified enough and US just has no other way but to go for H-1B workers? It's hard to believe that.
Are companies playing various shenanigans with legal loopholes? I heard recently there was a database someone created of "hidden" jobs these companies post, where nobody would be likely to see them so they can turn around to Uncle Sam and say "oh well, looks like nobody wants to work here, we'll just have to go for H-1Bs".
The thing is pitching your salary lower doesn’t always make you more attractive as a candidate. If you’re going in lower than market rate then many recruiters start wondering about your past performance, confidence, etc.
As a hiring manager in a big company, salary isn’t really much of a consideration for me. The company has salary bands per role that I have very little control over. If a candidate is above that band and unwilling to come down, then I probably won’t even hear from our recruiters that that person applied. So in our process, somebody wouldn’t accidentally price themselves out of an opportunity.
So it’s possible that job seekers are making themselves uncompetitive via high salary demands, but I have my doubts whether its a major factor.
I’d like to jump onto this real quick because of your last bit:
> So it’s possible that job seekers are making themselves uncompetitive via high salary demands, but I have my doubts whether its a major factor.
Generally, you’re hitting the nail on the head in the immediate. The only reason I landed on my feet after this Big Tech layoff cycle is because I ate a $25k/yr pay cut so I wouldn’t lose the remaining $150k/yr in salary at a new firm.
That being said, the job market is irreparably broken at the moment, because of what you just mentioned about high salary demands. The high demands are due to higher costs, which employers aren’t willing to compensate for in salary. As the cost of everything goes up and labor gets let go, there’s this expectation for salaries to go down due to oversupply. This was correct in the era of the Great Recession, but people in all demographics other than the tippy top are out of breathing room. Everything is too expensive to survive on the subsistence wages being offered, and employers have responded by using AI tooling to automate what should really be a fully-human process (hiring), leading to clogs in the gears of the job cycle.
Ultimately something must give, if the ruling powers don’t want to have riots. Either wages have to go up to meet the increased costs of housing, transport, food, healthcare, education, etc - the basic necessities of life - or those costs have to plummet by orders of magnitude that it’d be market-obliterating.
It’s an easier pill to swallow to pay people more, but the pressure isn’t there to do so yet.
For recruiters like yourself, I’m hoping you’re taking hard looks at the market fundamentals and cost of living, and applying pressure to compensation-makers to raise it upward now while the market is broken, rather than trying to catch up to their wiser competition when something snaps. It's cheaper to pay $20k more today, than $35k + recruiting fees tomorrow.
> As a hiring manager in a big company, salary isn’t really much of a consideration for me.
I think this happen higher up. Policies like work from home or not or how many roles to open in what region, how many H1Bs to sponsor is something that happens above the hiring manager roles. Hiring managers sort of work on standard bands or levels I think in most larger companies.
> So in our process, somebody wouldn’t accidentally price themselves out of an opportunity.
The way I had seen it work, is usually positions have to open first. They would be something like "we're opening 3 architect IV positions in Poland and/or UK". So that kind if indicates there is no point in interviewing someone from Seattle asking for a architect V salary band.
Underemployed since 2017, working menial jobs and homeless since mid-'18, not even trying to get a tech job because I can't present myself as middle class.
I'm coping by building a system to solve homelessness in general which I've concluded is impossible by getting a menial job and saving ("just get 2?" Logistics, I have answers for everything).
I'm guessing someone will eventually get me some freelance/contract work and that's how my situation will be resolved ($10k over a month would do). Just building online brands with innovative techniques and sharing results until that day. Yeehaw.
I made a bunch of friends in the local rave & queer community, helped start organizations including founding a hackerspace, met the love of my life, and now am part of a very healthy community that has been helping me cope and get through this shitty tech sector hiring slump.
Taking breaks has been very good for my soul, and I've quieted the fear of instability with surrounding myself with people who I know will be there for me when things get rough.
It's surprising how cheaply you can survive when push comes to shove and you have to make concessions, live with roommates, live in small housing, going to the foodbank or getting on food stamps.
Although, runway is slowly dwindling and am unsure what's next for my future. I'm not too worried, though.
Yes but I took the time off somewhat intentionally. I spent 3+ years not working. I tried finding work in NYC for a couple of those years but it never manifested. It got to me in the end and I got tired of some issues I was having in NYC.
I ended up having to come back to the bay area prematurely. I want to live here long term but it wasn't the right fit for where I'm at in life. (Single mid-30s male - dying alone) I'm working at a FAANG. I've studied well over 1000+ LC problems, paid for professional tutoring/mocks in LC and System Design, dozens of free mock interviews, and several hundred actual interviews over the years.
The way I coped was working even harder at studying and having an otherwise busy life in other aspects. When I looked for jobs in the past - it was a full-time job just from the studying aspect.
I've been unemployed since 2013 and honestly... the whole thing has been beneficial. I went through a long period of trying to find work initially, and ended up self-sabotaging offers due to intense stress. Then after that I kind of felt worthless and depressed. Took some introspection to realize I was being ridiculous and that I was more than a job.
I would say even before this all went down things were going badly for me. I had lost my passion for tech for a long time and wondered if that would ever come back... Well, after spending an entire year not coding anything I woke up one day... and felt excited again?
I think that maybe I just had burn out and had never taken a proper break in my life. Makes me realize that a lot of the way I operated was unsustainable... And if its going to end up in me being severely mentally broken to protect myself from stress that I'm self-inducing... its not worth it. Proper rest is the essential piece I never took seriously.
I don't know if I'll end up being hired again and I don't really care. I'm currently working on my open source projects and having a lot of fun. Feels good man.
My last engagement was exactly 2 years ago, after nearly 3 years struggling with successive difficult working environments (bad employer, bad project, bad client). My savings ran out 12 months ago and I still couldn't find a job. Since then I've lived frugally, off of my line of credit and credit cards. Moving to a cheaper country helped to slow the bleeding.
After my last client 2 years ago, I got into reading/listening to philosophy, which eventually led to a steady contemplative practice. 3 months into it, it became difficult to motivate myself to do anything except listen to guided meditations, satsangs by various teachers, contemplate into the sense of self, or go on daily long walks across town doing the same.
A year ago, some motivation came back, which allowed me to do a few coding problems every day. Then about 5 months ago, I started to let go of some personal attachments (identity patterns, beliefs about me, about life, about the world, about my place in it) and motivation started to steadily come back in, but with a lot of detachment. 3 months ago I started prepping to find a job again. I bought a few books and joined a few online courses to fill the gaps in my resume. I've accepted that I may need to get back on the horse at half my previous salary. I think I would be fine with even a third and probably less, if it didn't look so suspicious to my would-be employer, lol. I have an unwavering trust that things will work themselves out just fine, so even when I experience bouts of stress, they're quite brief.
I have some short term goals, but little ambitions. I can still see the achiever in me, but he's slowly dying. I'm fine with that. I'm trying to be fine with how the world is generally. If I feel that I can help make things easier for someone right now, I can try. But I've accepted that I'm no messiah. There are no messiah. Nobody knows shit about how this or that ought to be. Now or in the future. I'm coming to peace with success really meaning experiencing breath or taking a step.
Lately, I've started adding some of the new skills that I acquired in my resume and it correlated with some reactions on my latest applications. Causation? Maybe, I don't know, but there's hope. One thing that will probably change even after I find work, is that I'll execute on my other interests, which I kept putting off, because of some far away grandiose objectives. My recent struggles with money and employment in tech have also revealed a vulnerability and a dependency. I see that I need to be more resilient and adaptable. Next time the industry comes up with new interesting shenanigans to test me, I'll probably be moving on to something else. Beekeeping, fungiculture, soap making, or whatever. I'll probably even start a few projects on the side while employed. I love coding and will probably keep doing it until my mind wavers, but it has to stop being my identity.
I got laid off in august 2023. I had seen it coming for a few months, as I had in the previous year been promoted to lead an engineering team for another company at the PE group I worked for and it quickly became clear they were going to consolidate the product lines at the two companies and my group's CTO lost the political battle.
I was a bit concerned at the time as the previous couple quarters had seen a LOT of tech layoffs and I had also already seen a lot of anxiety in the industry about the changing supply/demand landscape. I ended up getting a new job I was excited about in less than a month, which I was very much not expecting when I began job searching. Unfortunately I may have been too quick to jump into the first thing that came along - after 2 months of onboarding I was out of a job again, as the team lead role I was hired for suddenly didn't have a team to lead and not much use for me without one. Oh well.
I took the holidays off and figured I'd spend some time playing with all the emerging AI capabilities. I figured I'd hack on some fun stuff for a few months, see if I could build a product business around it, and go from there. I ended up building something along the lines of Windows Recall, but when Microsoft announced it in May 24 and I saw the reception, that was the end of that.
I started job searching again, but then my wife got diagnosed with cancer and I decided to extend my time off to focus on her treatment. Fortunately treatment went about as well as we could hope and this summer she went back to work again.
So I've been applying again over the last few months. Initially I focused on local jobs as I've been mostly remote since 2018 and frankly miss the office environment. I got 3 final round interviews in the first month of applying and got ghosted by all 3. That was unexpected and frustrating. And for one job, in my last interview round with a VP, he said he wanted me to come back in a few weeks to interview for a more senior role instead. Which I did, and then they ghosted me. I don't necessarily mind not getting the job (I'm awesome but hey I get there might be better fits out there for particular role requirements) but I don't get the unprofessionalism that has seemingly become so common these days.
Now I'm starting to focus on remote jobs again as well, but it's tough constantly seeing day old job posts on linkedin with 100+ applications already.
So as for coping, I'm doing alright all things considered. Definitely didn't expect to go this long without a 9-5, and I know I'm fortunate to have been able to absorb it financially. Most importantly, I'm grateful that I spent the last year+ making sure my wife was taken care of. And of course that experience really puts into perspective the importance of how we spend our days, while we still have them. I will say that I'm disappointed (with myself) I haven't been able to launch a viable business during this time, but that's how it goes sometimes. I'm looking forward to 2026.
>>seeing day old job posts on linkedin with 100+ applications already.
Don't believe for a second that these figures are real. And I recommend that you apply on the business' own site, never through Linkedin's own process.
It's great that you and your wife are healthy and in a good place! Keep going.
The woman I thought was the love of my life left me for another man, made me feel guilty about it with a immense net of lies just to not be held accountable so I went into chronic depression. Quit my job at uni in october 2015 just so to not be able to see her ever again. Was unemployed until march 2018. Was broke, heartbroken and humillated not only by my ex but even by my own sister, lost my best friend in the world in part because I was broke and couldn't do much about it, even lost almost all my hair all of a sudden... It was definitely the worst thing I've ever had to endure.
Once I was lucky enough to get a miserable job I could began from the ground up all over again. It hasn't been easy but as the time passed felt like I was regaining my inner peace and as I see it now that is the source of happiness. Not everything is perfect but in 2016-2017 I couldn't even imagine I would escape that situation.
Am a bit scared because the project I'm working on is reaching its final stages so I can be completely unemployed anytime soon once again, but at least this time I'm prepared for it and am doing much better than 10 years ago.
I wish nobody ever has to go through a situation like this. Hoping you all are doing great.
Damn, that’s rough. Glad you made it out okay. Depression really is a crippling disease, and I do encourage anyone to see a psychologist if you experience similar symptoms.
It tremendously helped me recover after someone close to me unexpectedly passed away.
This experience, really a decade of insecurity, has left me always being vigilant. If I'm relentless, I don't feel so insecure. The effort has gotten me results. I never wanted to be "so good they can't ignore you", just safe.
Two years is well past the point of having to throw the kitchen sink at the problem. Months in, it's worth having projects in some key technologies. A year in, I'd re-train. I'd also scout out some grants for school/training available to those who've been laid off.
It had me thinking of what I want to impart to my children. I don't want to strike the fear of God in them that you're always on the precipice of doom, but I don't want them complacent either. Robotics x machine-learning/LLMs presents a lot of uncertainty.
Huawei which I previously worked for run month long hackathons aimed at PHDs & would offer internships to the top 3 teams with a return offer if they do well. This is Europe only though and competition is tough (~200+ teams with people from around the continent)
Technically 2.5 years here (I had a shitty job in the meantime for 4 months, but it wasn't a tech job). I have a decent GitHub portfolio though and I've made sure to never waste my time. So, I'm unemployed on paper, yet always "employed" building open-source software in reality. I have tried to finish building my cartography startup and my mini-browser engine. Once I have that, I can hopefully support myself with non-software money because the job market in Germany is a complete disaster, I still get interviews (about two per month), but they usually lead nowhere. Sometimes I get into the next round, just to be rejected for someone with more experience.
Sadly (?), I don't have any higher education and I'm too "self-employed" for corporate jobs (corporate jobs really, really don't like having someone build their own startup on the side). And on top I'm 26, not 36, so there's no way I'll have the experience required for someone truly "Senior". I get by on German social security, I get exactly 560€ / month and that's it (plus health insurance, 220€). If you wonder how someone can live on that low amount of money, it's because I accidentally inherited a paid-off house and don't need to pay rent (state covers any taxes, would be even more ludicrous if they didn't). So I have very, very few expenses, no liabilities and a few close friends.
I never wanted to be a drain on society (heavily socially punished in Germany), so I try to stay active and use my time for open-source projects. But since my net loss on society is relatively low anyway, I see it as morally justified to develop my "cartographic AI solution" while being a bum on paper. Let's just call it "government-subsidized startup seed funding". At least the thought of "finish your startup or you'll one day die of starvation" does do wonders for my motivation.
If people want to judge me for being on social security, I don't care anymore. I have my goals and I'm not running out of work, technically, despite being "unemployed". I care about building my skills and my startup and having "something for myself" so that I don't get financially torpedoed every few years (2008 crisis, 2015 crisis, Corona 2020, AI bubble 2025, ...). Once the job market gets better or I finish building my startup, I'll be better off. Until then I just have to deal with judging looks. How on earth someone is however supposed to build a stable family life from software engineering if the job market shits itself every few years is beyond me. I guess I lack the firm handshake and smile.
I did buy "Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata", once I'm done with my programming projects, I'll focus on that. Some of my friends can speak fluent Latin, I gotta catch up. And learning math properly, working out, etc. But yeah, I'm lucky that I don't have many expenses. Stay active, don't waste time.
I quit my last job. I found myself thinking that the easy way out was really attractive, and I was seeing fewer and fewer downsides. Then I thought, I might as well quit, enjoy as much as I could, then take the easy way out when my account ran down to zero. Then, as it was approaching zero, I found out I could start withdrawing pension from my old job, with a heavy penalty for doing so early. Fuck it. I did that. Now I'm limping by on about $1500 a month. It's working for now, but I can imagine the end not too far away. But that eternal darkness is more attractive than dealing with the day to day bullshit of working while my country falls quickly into fascism, in addition to the normal fucked up capitalist morality and thinking.
Almost 2 years for me but I've hardly applied anywhere in that time. I'm disgusted at what the field has become and can't see myself working in it again.
I saw this coming for a long time and kept my lifestyle simple and expenses low so that I'd be able to retire early. I'm happy to work again if I can find something reasonable but I'm not going to kill myself anymore faking my way through some "agile" AI/ad-tech company job.
You go where the work is, and you have unrelated skills you can fall back on to put food on the table.
If society wants to burn itself down by forcing competent people into poverty and homelessness, then it loses the benefits that those people would bring. That can only go on for so long, the worse it is, the more violent the times become because people become more desperate and without future; a complete abandonment of the social contract.
Its a sticky choice of recognizing bad investments. If the loud voices want to pretend its not happening, they can pretend, but they aren't fooling anyone. They just show how malicious they are, and while violence can never be justified in a civilized society, when you have systems forcing people to poverty/slavery you are no longer in a civilized society.
All it takes is around 10-20 years of continuous systemic abuse, the people remember and talk, and the generation that comes after are not fooled by the lies. They come prepared to do what's necessary, such is the rise and fall of empires historically.
Yes I've heard lots of weak people discussing a fear of competing in a wider talent pool and then crying about "bias" as an excuse rather than taking responsibility for their own results.
We hear often about isms of all sorts, but as soon as someone mentions an unsympathetic group, all of a sudden isms magically disappear. Further, even bringing up the idea is aggressively chastised.
Do I have any more information on the subject than anyone else? No.
I wish.. must be incredibly liberating and relaxing to be off for two years or more. Living the life of an XVIIIth century aristocrat just with more material comforts and less status.
I take from this you would like to be employed? If so, what are you doing to change the situation (instead of coping with it as it stands)?
I know it's hard out there (at least where I am) but I have helped a few people get jobs in the last 90 days, so please share the barrier you're facing and maybe someone can help.
Tech-wise in the US it was tough. I went to work in factory for a bit. I had recruiters hitting me up but they were 6 month contracts so I kept turning those down but eventually I just accepted one and I'm almost a year in now.
I will note I at the time had 5 YOE but no degree so that is a factor (many I don't qualify since no degree).
Reading r/cscareerquestions is depressing not that I go on there much now. People talking about applying to thousands of jobs.
I have a friend who is a SSE. Mid 30s. Been fully employed his entire life. No degree. Has been writing production code since 15.
His entire local professional network got nuked and people stopped hiring because of that stupid software engineering R&D amortization budget deception of Section 174. And I assume the double whammy of ai.
He had his resume reviewed, ran it by friends it looked good and solid.
Applied to about 300 roles before realizing it was a non starter and he was getting automated rejections for everything.
He had to automate his application process around a full career CV and Ai.
He would spend all day copying in role descriptions and urls and had cursor spit out custom .MD resumes and then run a pdf generator on them.
It was kinda ok and also kinda like each resume was a hyper specific lie. It definitely hallucinated.
He still hit 3k resumes before getting hired and he still only had like 4 companies give interviews.
And that was only after that stupid tax law was revoked.
One persons past suffering and struggle cannot be so naively extrapolated to anothers current suffering.
I'm trying to understand Section 174 impact especially because your friend's persistence seems like a good litmus test that positive changes are afoot. Also I have a daughter who will be looking for R&D/R&E EE position when she graduates in 2026.
Needing to amortize expenses over 15 years puts a big damper on anything corps may be excited about today but with less than 100% assurance of in the long run? Restoring the pre-2022 regime for domestic expenses only is for the most part supporting domestic workers? So your friend is back in a more familiar job market... maybe college grads too? Thanks.
It's been reversed now, but the inertia is still being felt. The backlog of highly qualified engineers ares still competing for positions, and other factors such as the interest rate and the effect of AI on positions for younger engineers are still in effect.
What are people doing to need 700 applications? If you went to university, usually you'd be able to get an internship after 4-5 applications & a return offer. Then afterwards just stay put when the economy isn't doing well and hop around when it is.
Based on anecdotal data, companies don’t look at any personalized resume. Much better use of your time to send your standard cover letter and resume. Just apply to positions where you are, at least, 80% match. And yes you will never find 100% match, most employers make up requirements anyways.
This is my experience too. It didn't used to be this way. I always used to research a company, tailor my CV and add a cover letter. I'd be hired within 1-3 applications.
Now? It seems a waste of time because no one responds anyway. I'm incentivised to apply to as many as possible in the hope of having a conversation with someone.
for a while I actually studied the target company, and wrote a half-page cover letter detailing why I thought what they were doing was really interesting, and how it dovetailed with my background.
those didn't come back with any more frequency than the auto-apply
Lost my job in early 2023. Couldn't find anything (25 years of exp, director of engineering managerial/technical type, great at what i do by past coworkers/bosses admission). By EOY I had to sell my house, figured I could use the (significant) profits to buy time or I could travel and make the time a little more enjoyable, so I set out to explore most of Europe thinking, well I'll for sure find a job before I run out of money! Another year went by, hundreds of applications, no job. Back home now, living in rather inadequate accommodations thinking "any day now!" Applied to ~400 jobs in the last 1.5 months (because at this point I'm applying to everything that moves), 3 interviews, 3 ghostings. Everyone's rejecting for real shitty reasons, I could go on for a bit about that.
1) as the child of a parent who was a smart, hard working accountant/financial analyst who was out of work for 2 long stretches in my youth, I have learned when you lose your job, you do not fuck around — you attack it with the same urgency as if the house was on fire as in immediately; 2) after 25 years, you’ve got to have some network — swallow your pride and use them.
I have been there, and I saw my father — there is nothing good about it. You have my sympathy and I wish you the best.
Applying to 400 jobs is apparently not enough sense of urgency, got it. It's surely American laziness that's the problem and not the infinite slave labor they're competing with.
After that much if you're as skilled add you think you should be finding an interview coach and someone to edit your CV.
Have you asked past bosses, co-workers for referrals?
I've done a few rounds of CV edits and reviews early on, it hasn't helped. It's worth noting that the initial CV I had was one where I never had trouble finding work with.
Edit: misunderstood "referrals" for "references" so edited my reply out. No, I've never asked for referrals from past colleagues.
Not having LinkedIn is ruining your chances. Candidates without a LinkedIn are going to come across as a scam in the very least, 90% of the time your application will just get tossed if you can't be found on LI.
Pretty much this. I know lot of people hate Linkedin but the fact is that if you are a job candidate and have little to no Linkedin, it's a huge potential red flag in today's world. Lot of scammers, overemployeds/moonlighters out there.
When I was moonlighting LinkedIn didn’t affect me. Every time I applied/interviewed and got hired for a w2 job, I just left my last non moonlighting employer on there, and checked the “please don’t contact current employer” checkbox. I hadn’t worked there in over a year.
Didn’t my new employer want me to update my LinkedIn? That never came up, but if it would have I would have delayed. Why should I support their business model.
Especially if someone has 25 years of experience as the OP said.
That's some real stupid thinking.
At its most basic, this is a cult of qualification which no longer provides real value, it fails for a number of reasons I won't get into here.
When you disqualify arbitrarily, and can't find anyone because of that, its your fault for disqualifying everyone, not the market's fault for not having the ballerina that doesn't exist.
Want a programmer in a language thats only 10 years old with 15 years of direct experience? You aren't going to find it even when the creator of that language applies.
You pay to have the work done. That is the only legitimate requirement for hiring someone and remaining employed, and you can't go and change the requirements later when they show they can do more. Doesn't matter if they moonlight, are overemployed etc. That view to disqualify such people are in fact monopolistic practices designed to disenfranchise wages that are already low and distorted because of money-printing, they are not red-flags.
Its like the flawed type of thinking that "We need someone to do this work, but this guy is so overqualified he'll leave first chance; so we won't hire anyone".
You hire to have a job done. You don't get to be an arbitrary slave master. The moment you lose sight of this is the moment you ignore your immediate needs, and drive your company on a path towards failure, and if its a consolidated large company, that failure and bad decisionmaking will impact a lot more people because of the centralization/concentration.
Financial engineering can decouple the need for immediate action, but the tradeoff is that the risk of not doing things you should have done becomes far greater to your long-term sustainability, and its completely invisible. There is no place for deception and coercion in the hiring process. If the job doesn't exist, don't jam communication channels. Jamming channels is tortuous interference.
The point is that when you have 100 Resumes to sort through for 1 role, you will have to use process of elimination. In 2025, with AI/scams/bots/moonlighters, Linkedin Profile is a good way to sort through. I am not saying having Linkedin is the only thing that matters but when there is so much noise, you need to stand out especially as a real human.
Sure, there is naturally a sieving process in any hiring, and the issue of AI/scams/bots is simple to solve because it was solved before AI was around before people got lazy. Fraud and misrepresentation isn't a new thing or even "being unsolve-able except in just one way, your chosen route".
The answer is simple...
Require that they come in and show up physically to the office to verify their CV/application/Driver's License, and at that time since there will be cost on the business side, also cross-check if they fit other open positions you have, or if they are interested in hearing about other positions (the answer will almost certainly be yes). Rapidly promoting from within naturally bubbles the competent to positions without a lot of external risk like what you've described.
This is how you build a resilient pipeline of talent, and vet the soft skills people who would be good at the job that you'll never find through an interview except by moonshot chance. When you structure it from the get-go to exclude excessively and use bad indicators, you have bad data in and get bad outcomes out.
> LinkedIn Profile is a good way to sort through.
Its not, there are plenty of fake LinkedIn Profiles. You can't stand out as a real human when you have pigeonholed everyone into a circular peg and set the sieve requirements to a square peg. Forcing people to all go through a online centralized portal, even when they show up in person, is what promotes these perverse incentives. Not rocket science.
As a business you can do a lot to solve problems, and there's no way you can stand out as a human among the noise of digital artifacts where bots mimic real humans in the same digital environment. Go physical.
I've friends who are executives that do hiring, their main complaints were we've tried to hire people for X positions, and our top 10 candidates were all fake, we spent months on this with numerous interviews (cost) and have to start all over from scratch.
I pointed out the answer is rather stupid simple. Go old school verify the inputs are real at the beginning of the process, not at the end after you sunk all those costs. That's what they've been doing since then and it works.
Finding the right talent is a cost you have to pay that you can't push off on other businesses through use of products or services where that business may lie/misrepresent because each business is different, and if you depend upon that one pipeline for talent they can and will eventually cause issues where you can't find talent.
The attitude you seem to have mirrors the same things I see in people who simply don't want to pay the cost to get competent people, and by extension don't want to actually be in business.
Also, conditions worsen when you spoil an entire labor pool over decades through bad management in consolidated hands, it gets harder and costlier to find qualified labor. Its the nature of ponzi; costs go up unti outflows exceed inflows.
If you don't get ahead of the labor crunch, it will crush you, and most competent people given the adverse circumstances in hiring are now retraining resulting in brain-drain, a hollowing out and watering down of the competency in the labor pool. What happens when you can't find qualified people at any cost because your practices drove them to other sectors. They won't come back because they wrote it off as a bad investment. Its psychologically sticky.
People always have a choice, even when others try to make it so they don't.
In addition to possibly being a scammer, some people found my resume to be less believable without a linkedin profile. One interviewer thought I was lying about my previous job title.
Why would it matter what your previous job title was? Why would I care if your previous job title was ‘Grand Vizier of Khyrgistan’? Can you do the job I want you to do now?
If your previous job title was "Doer of a Thing" then a prospective employer is more likely to consider you for a job doing the same (or similar) thing, as it shows you have prior experience doing a thing.
It’s because LinkedIn creates a social cost for lying, and it also creates social proof because coworkers can agree that you worked there.
As opposed to claiming whatever the hell you want in resume.pdf.
What? I just put “computer programmer” for every position listed on LinkedIn - why would that be any more valid?
Agree with this, unfortunately. I have a coworker who routinely calls people without linkedins "sketchy" and obsessively looks everyone else, vendors, functional area colleagues, etc up on linkedin. I didn't have a very fleshed out linkedin myself because I value privacy and was surprised how biased some people are about it. I've also seen candidates who have otherwise passed interview panels get veto'd because the dates on their linkedins don't match their CVs.
I don’t have a LinkedIn and it has impaired my job hunts in the past but I always worry that creating one now (without the references of colleagues from decades of past work) would look worse than not having one?
Nah that’s not a thing. Get involved spend an afternoon setting it up and then it will suggest a bunch of people you’ve probably worked with in the past. They’ll be happy to connect and then it’s a good point to catch up and drop the “I’m in the market”.
If anybody used to enjoy working with you and they know of something it, should be easy enough from then on.
Majority of my LinkedIn contacts don't have any endorsements on their LI profile.
It used to be a thing of the past - people don't seem to bother now. Go ahead and create the profile. Search and connect with your colleagues.
Do people still do endorsements on LinkedIn? There was an initial flurry when that "feature" launched but I haven't been endorsed for anything for I think the past decade. Really the only things I do on LinkedIn are update my job history and accept connections from coworkers.
Imho, anything past where you've worked on LinkedIn is a waste of time.
And arguably even a negative signal. Productive people have jobs to do instead of grinding Monopoly karma. Yes, this absolutely includes LinkedIn thought leadership.
I know MS and recruiters love to push the 'it matters' line, but I'd ask the reader -- who would you rather hire: someone who wow'd in an interview or someone with LinkedIn flair?
> who would you rather hire: someone who wow'd in an interview or someone with LinkedIn flair?
Who would you rather interview: someone who has a great resume, and a strong LinkedIn profile, and connections to a strong peer community who can endorse them, or a faceless rando that shows up in your inbox with a PDF, amongst thousands of others, with zero referrals?
I'm not endorsing LI grind -- I too hate it, but ignore at your own peril. OP seems to be in a rather precarious situation, so maybe it would help being a bit less dogmatic.
LinkedIn referrals mean jack shit.
As I said:
> anything past where you've worked on LinkedIn is a waste of time
Because everything on LinkedIn literally exists to be farmed. And why wouldn't it? LinkedIn's customers are recruiters. Users are the currency.
OP would be better served by actually networking with their peers. Not in app-mediated (and -monetized) ways, but in normal social human ways.
Sometimes it's like people forgot how to say "Hey, want to grab a coffee and catch up? What's been going on with you?"
> LinkedIn's customers are recruiters.
Exactly this. And recruiters are the ones finding candidates and scheduling interviews.
You may not like it. I certainly don't. But that's the world we live in.
> "Hey, want to grab a coffee and catch up?"
This and the comment above are not at odds. If you're looking for a job like OP, at minimum you should do both.
> who would you rather hire: someone who wow'd in an interview or someone with LinkedIn flair?
Wrong question. This is not about the hiring stage.
Who would I rather move on to a phone screen: someone with an empty or nonexistent linkedin profile, or someone with a profile which matches their resume and has many connections to other people who worked at the same companies?
While I hate to have to say it is the latter, that's where we are today with AI-generated fake resumes.
I have 344 resumes left to review tonight. Those that don't match their linkedin profile history have no chance (unless they are a direct colleague referral).
Hence
> anything past where you've worked on LinkedIn is a waste of time
I am unable to parse this sentence.
<3 I thought I was alone in this
Yeah, I have like 50 endorsements from when it launched and 0 since. It looks fake to me (like I paid them) but that was how it was.
As I take a break on friday night from reading through an endless pile of resumes for a role I'm hiring...
I would suggest creating the linkedin profile but be sure to fully populate the job descriptions for each job (or as far back as you care to go) and spend some time looking up past colleagues from each one and send them invites to connect.
I'm finding that a completely blank linkedin profile (listing only companies but zero detail) is a bigger red flag than not having a linkedin profile.
But having a profile with job description info and a network of connections from each job adds credibility. When a resume looks borderline suspicious, I dig through the persons connections in linkedin to see if it looks like they really worked at each of those places. Even better if I find any shared connections, which is a stronger signal that I'm looking at a real person not an AI bot.
Also, building that network of connections can be a source of job leads on its own.
Man, for 15 years I’ve been working on projects that are not LinkedIn friendly. For example, online casinos where my coworkers all have pseudonyms. Or taking 1-2 years to work on a personal project that fizzles out. Not to menion, surfing for 2 years.
I'm in a terrible position for when I need to find a normal job, and comments like this don't let me forget it!
Like the saying goes, the best time was years ago, the next best time is now.
I hardly use LinkedIn, but it does show work history. As someone else said there was a flurry of “endorsements” but I haven’t seen many since.
It is better to have 1 than not. I highly recommend you set it up now. Put a real picture. Too much noise these days and without a Linkedin Profile, lot of employers are not even going to look at you. Just stating facts.
not a recruiter: I have never felt that recruiters pay attention to linkedin references specifically.
You can also make one, add people, and then ask for a few references. "I just finally made a linkedin in 2025 on a lark" is a perfectly cromulent icebreaker/reason to ask.
Seconding. These days I will rarely talk to anyone without a verified LinkedIn or other presence like a clearly inhabited GitHub (and I’m not looking for hyperactivity by any means)
> anyone without a verified LinkedIn
Last I checked, verification requires people to install the app. No thanks.
Just uninstall it afterwards.
But why? Those things are easy to game, and speaking personally, I don't have an online software development presence like Github because I don't spend my off time working on anything I feel is worth sharing.
If i’m hiring for eng director in my industry I'm expecting at least a few 2nd/3rd common connections so i can backchannel. Without that i assume its someone who hasnt gotten along with anyone at beast or a scammer at worst
Numbers. I’ve read thousands of resumes over the past few months, screened dozens of applicants, and experienced a wide variety of weirdness and fakes both in resumes and on screen calls. Please note that I’m talking about raw “application box resumes”. Referrals and other semi-vetted sources don’t get this level of scrutiny.
I gave two examples of secondary sources, but what I’m really getting at here is that the numbers and noise are so, so high now (not to mention staffing firm fronts and foreign actors) that I usually need more signal than a solid-looking resume before investing even 30’ in a screening call.
Ah, yes I see what you mean - a low pass filter.
Well, that sucks. The one thing I hate about Linked in is being up-rated on my skills by people who barely know what I do and certainly have never worked with me in any capacity or even discussed my work in any sense beyond "What do you do for a living?".
From where I sit, it's a tool for marketers and recruiters to gather data and it's otherwise completely useless.
One of my pet peeves are people who don’t understand what I call “gravity problems”. You may not like gravity. But that doesn’t mean you jump off of a 30 story building and hope to survive.
Whether I like LinkedIn or not is completely irrelevant. I play the game, add connections, post a few banal “Thought Leadership” posts, ask for recommendations, etc.
My remote job at BigTech fell into my lap in mid 2020 and at 46 because an internal recruiter reached out to me, I got my next job two years ago within a week after I started looking because of targeted LinkedIn outreach. My current job also fell into my lap two weeks after I started looking because an internal recruiter reached out to me.
It does absolutely no good being good at your job if no one knows it.
I think even in the current job market, someone would give me a job or a contract relatively quickly if I needed one based on my network, LinkedIn profile, and positive impressions I’ve made in my niche over the past 7 years.
None of your positive impressions are by virtue of linkedin though. Unless your profession is influencer I suppose.
How else would someone know about me and how would I connect with them? I can change my status to “Open to Work” and have 1200 people see it My specific niche is strategy consulting along with hands on keyboard work for smaller projects and before that, I was hired at 3 separate companies by a new to the company director/CTO to lead initiatives. At that level it’s all about knowing how to “influence” and communicate.
I’m not bragging, I’m old. I should have that type of experience and network.
> My specific niche is strategy consulting
I think that's the key difference. For strategy folks, it makes sense to demonstrate this kind of work through that kind of channel. But LinkedIn posts aren't relevant for non-networking roles.
All roles are networking roles
The parent poster has “25 years of exp, director of engineering managerial/technical type”. He should be selling himself as a strategy person. In today’s market you have to be networking regardless especially for remote work. Even before I started doing the BS influencer mess, two of my last three jobs were based on internal recruiters reaching out to me.
"It does absolutely no good being good at your job if no one knows it."
Yeah and LI is a terrible way to show it.
There is a better way, and will be a better way. With time.
For now I agree - have to play the game.
So exactly how was a company in Seattle going to find out about me in Atlanta if not through LinkedIn to offer me a remote job paying 50% more than i was making? How were the next two companies where I worked remotely going to know anything about me?
What “better way” is there?
ha, I cant say. Im working on something related to this.
Referrals are the only way right now. The front door is broken everywhere. I spent 4 years off and I managed to come back, but only referrals were worthwhile in getting me roles worth anything
Hiring managers check you on LinkedIn 100 percent of the time. Not having a LinkedIn is a huge issue.
In 2025 it basically means you're likely a bot/scammer. LinkedIn provides the social proof that at least you're a real person, with real business connections. It's sadly not optional.
I agree that it's not optional; in my book, a company mandating association with the degenerate cesspool that is LinkedIn as entry criteria for employment consideration is simply a non-starter, full stop.
If I disclose an email address that's directly traceable to my current employer---or even one provided to me by professional organizations I'm registered with---as adequate "social proof" (whatever that means) that I'm not "likely a bot/scammer", and a company's hiring manager is too blind to see the signal, then I'd write that off as a hidden trap passively dodged with confident relief.
Good for you, you'll be a principled unemployed.
Absolutely stupid advice for people who actually look for a job. You're participating in a social game, with well-defined signalling functions. If you'd like to actually have a positive outcome, you'll need to make use of the signalling functions commonly recognized, even if you don't like them.
(Plus, opting out of a commonly accepted path with the reason that you personally think other signals are as good and the other side is just too blind to see them sends a large amount of information about your ability to collaborate in larger teams)
You do you. There are jobs where you can get away with this, there are people with networks that allow them to play different games. But as advice to job seekers, it's actively detrimental.
any other not-optional sites to think about connecting with?
Probably github, if you're a developer.
> Hiring managers check you on LinkedIn 100 percent of the time.
YMMV. White collar work here follows connections and introductions - nearly exclusively. A few of my clients might have poked around Linkedin in passing but most have never used it.
As an aside, I deleted my LI because I've never had a legit contact thru it, only spam.
source: 35yrs in IT
When I was a hiring manager (it's been a number of years) I always checked LI for applicants which looked interesting on "paper" but which had not come through a trusted source such as coworker from the past or present that I had respect for (both their technical skills and their willingness to be objective about others even if their observations were negative).
My primary reason for this was that unfortunately some resumes seem to include quite of bit of creative writing -- creativity which the applicant could bet only I, and my company, would see. If, however, the applicant had posted similar claims about past jobs on LI, it was public for all to see so somewhat likely to be less "creative" as most people find it embarrassing to get _caught_ claiming credit for work that someone else did or giving an overblown explanation of the import of their work. This is, of course, not 100% reliable as I've seen coworkers and past employees posting on LI claiming things they were "responsible for" or "implemented" when, in fact, they only had a tiny role (or, occasionally, even no discernible role) in.
Also, if I happened to notice a "connection" that I also knew, I could potentially ask them about the applicant (using due care to make sure that the applicant wouldn't be "outed" at their current job by my doing so).
> I always checked LI for applicants which looked interesting on "paper" but which had not come through a trusted source
This is a good observation.. rumination.. contribution? I can't find the right descriptive noun. Anyway, I get it. Perhaps the board is divided between regions inclined to use LI and not.
I have to disagree. I looked for a long time before I found my last gig (that ended in 2022). I had a LinkedIn and it wasn't much different, it took me months to find something. I still have a linkedin account to look for jobs, but that's it. No connections, no work history. What's relevant is on my resume anyway so I don't see what having a regular linkedin account would do. I deleted it when I found that job because, even as a job seeker, I saw no value in it and as a user, I saw no excuse to defend it.
You've applied to 400 jobs and had 3 responses and no success to be blunt your option about what you need to do to get hired is worth zero.
You refuse to change anything about your process, you aren't working to improve it, you are arguing against people telling them you don't need to do common/standard things.
This thread is a pretty good insight into why you are failing and what you need to work on.
Like I said, i had a legit linkedin account before i closed it and it never felt like it did anything for me. I have changed plenty about my process, from cv iterations and reviews, ai assistance to cater to job posts in cv and cover letters, etc. Of course i think all the information is great, but i also have first hand knowledge and experience. If you think all that's missing is a furnished LinkedIn account then i can tell you that it isn't accurate - in my experience.
> If you think all that's missing
They said it's necessary, not sufficient.
I have a couple dozen open roles right now, at a 50-person company. Each posting gets thousands of applications. Most are fakes, or AI-generated, or AI-generated fakes. Realistically, we're going to respond to 1%, maybe 2% of them, because again, 50-person team. Half the time, you get someone named Ralph McGuinness on for a quick code screen and they have a thick Mandarin accent or something equivalently implausible.
The best first filter we have at the moment is to programmatically toss out any resume that doesn't have a LinkedIn, that has a hallucinated LinkedIn that doesn't resolve, that resolves to a name that doesn't match the resume, that has no connections or history, etc.
It's an absurd state of play that hurts those of us trying to hire and those of you trying to get hired, but also a trivial hurdle for you to clear, so stop arguing and just do it.
Of those 400 applications, my LinkedIn profile was viewed 16 times. LinkedIn is not as essential as everyone is trying to portray it. Especially outside of the US where people actually care about data privacy.
LinkedIn only shows you authenticated viewers. You have no idea how many automated systems have filtered you out because you didn't include a link in your resume/application or because, as you said, the account has no connections or activity.
Do you know of any such automated systems or are you just making that up? I've never heard of application systems or ATS that looks for a linkedin URL in PDFs, extracts it along with employment information and validates it against what's in the resume, or a form that validates that a given entry leads to a valid LinkedIn profile, and that the profile corresponds to the one that was submitted. Recruiters; yes, and those will show up - and they haven't.
LLM-driven application sites were not a thing in 2022 (used by both real humans and scammers).
also fake workers were much less of a thing as well
to put it bluntly, the game has changed. what you knew from before is not correct now. if you keep applying your previous intuition and experience to a job search in todays market, you are going to be in for a hard time.
Well, keep on keeping on then. Sounds like you got this.
You are delusional if you think having a good LinkedIn doesn't improve your chances of getting hired... Maybe not for every job, but for many of them, surely.
I guess my experience hasn't shown value. I think people think of LinkedIn like Facebook - it only works if everyone agrees to stay hostage. I don't like the platform, I don't like that Microsoft is being all Microsofty about your data (have you looked at the new settings lately? That they added without telling anyone? Settings → Data Privacy → Data for Generative AI Improvement) and being a data-aware netizen, fuck linkedin.
Hiring manager here. It's standard practice for every hiring manager I know to review the candidate's LinkedIn as an additional input to the hiring process.
Not finding a LinkedIn page for someone can range from a neutral signal to a negative signal depending on the hiring manager. I personally don't read anything into it, but I know many hiring managers who feel that lack of a LinkedIn page is a negative sign. I don't like it, but it's how the world works some times.
A seasoned LinkedIn page is also becoming very valuable for applying to remote jobs. Remote employers are getting nervous with all of the overemployed people and fake applicants. Having a mature LinkedIn page with a decent number of connections to real people is a major positive sign for remote hiring.
It's not something you will be able to see or detect as a candidate.
I’m a manager in a cybersecurity consulting firm. I’ve hired half a dozen people for my team in the past year. I always check LinkedIn as well.
If someone isn’t on it, the chances are significantly higher they are fake or trying be be “overemployed.”
Does not having LinkedIn mean you’re not qualified or not real? Certainly not. Does it mean I will pass your resume over when sorting through a stack of qualified applicants? Absolutely.
Overemployed? Wow.
100% of people I know without a LinkedIn profile are overemployed.
Those people probably have very strong personal networks and a willingness to reach out to them for opportunities or a very high profile in their niche.
OP appears to have neither.
> You are delusional if you think having a good LinkedIn doesn't improve your chances of getting hired... Maybe not for every job, but for many of them, surely.
This isn't universal in every market. Business is very insular here and work follows referrals and introductions. You have those and you have work. Without them, Linkedin won't help.
I'm 35yr in IT; I plug into my clients in a way that I learn their processes - inc hiring. Few white collar employers here use Linkedin. I've never worked with one who did.
No connections and no work history, I would blacklist as spam.
How do you ensure linkedin history isn’t falsified?
I’ve seen all sort of false claims, but ultimately small programming task is best to sift out people.
You check references and watch for clues that it doesn’t add up.
Imperfect, but effective enough that this is how the world has solved for this forever.
Seriously. I could write 20 years of fake FAANG experience, connect with every rando posting AI slop since they just farm connections, and that would be better according to what i'm reading here.
No, because that would be a lie and seen through.
You made a big jump from “post your work history” to “commit fraud”, so you can justify ignoring consensus.
I don't think you're in a position to arbitrarily disagree with advice.
One small note -- what got you an interview before 2020 will often not get you an interview now. The market (as you obviously know) is much tougher. The last two managerial roles I've opened have gotten literally thousands of applications within the first week and it's harder to stand out. If you've done a few rounds already, there's probably not much incremental value, though.
Absolutely ask for referrals. You gotta painfully get on LinkedIn for maximum effectiveness -- if you're looking at a company and an ex-coworker you got along with knows someone there, ask for the introduction. It feels awkward and weird but it increases your chances somewhat.
A friend was laid off and when I looked at his CV I was shocked. It was terrible. I made suggestions but he didn’t seem to get it.
I strongly recommend you show your CV to someone and get feedback.
Every job I’ve had came from a referral
Sooo... Have you made that LinkedIn yet so fellow Canadians might see what you worked on in the past and can get in touch?
Even if i did i would never post it publicly. And yes i understand that it means i won't be getting thousands of strangers looking at my personal experience, one of whom might want to hire me. I wouldn't post my resume either. I'm just not comfortable giving my data to a company i don't trust and to share it openly on the public web. And yes i'm ok with the consequences.
If you are trying to get a job based on your resume and blindly submitting it to an ATS, you are doing it wrong. Every open req gets hundreds of applications and it’s impossible to stand out from the crowd.
> Have you asked past bosses…
I am not the original commenter but I think something that younger people forget is that when you reach 2 decades or more into your career, your network starts to dry up for you. This is in addition to your skillsets and work cultural fit being suspect because of your experience and age (set in their ways, old thinking, etc…).
I have been in tech for nearly 40 years. Almost every one of my former bosses is either out of the industry, retired, or dead. My network is useless to me. If my current job ends…I won’t find another tech gig.
Have you tried searching for a tech job? It’s not possible these days.
this year's job market is really bad. my manager landed a new job last year but he have spent 5 years causally looking for a job ever since my employer got bought out. i have been looking to jump ship but gave up.
It was already bad before AI fucked it nine feet deeper. Now it's probably change career type of situation, but after climbing the tech salary ladder for 25 years (not US level mind you), it's real daunting to go back at the bottom.
This is sort of what I'm afraid of. I reflect on a lot of people I worked with in the past that are a little older than I am now and things were rough. They'd basically try and find side work and make a living off of it but nearly all of them returned to the workforce. Now, jobs are scarce so I'm really thinking that a career change might be in order. With self driving cars posed to take out a chunk of low skilled jobs and with the self imposed AI that will likely cost 25% of IT job shrinkage, the future looks really grim.
Crass's song from the 1981 Systematic Death last verse seems prophetic, "They'd almost paid the mortgage when the system dropped its bomb".
How can you be a director and be applying for jobs like a 22 year old?
And also had less than a year of savings ...
>> By EOY I had to sell my house, figured I could use the (significant) profits to buy time or I could travel and make the time a little more enjoyable, so I set out to explore most of Europe thinking, well I'll for sure find a job before I run out of money!
Very reckless finance management, so I wonder if this correlates with not finding a "managerial" job.
First, "set out to explore Europe" immediately says "expenses". Without an income, that's teenager-level mentality.
Secondly, unless the house was still on mortgage, definitely it's cheaper to live on your own property and only scrap money for bills and food than paying rent on top of those. Also, and I'm not generalizing here, but people in general have parents / relatives. If times were that tough, I would retreat to my parent's house and rent the city apartment, that definitely buys me time.
And last but not least ... there are blue-collar jobs out there as a last resort. A friend of mine who lost his QA job, couldn't find anything else so he apprenticed as an electrician and now has got a license and works as such. Says he makes about the same as previously. There's "stacking the shelves at Lidl" also, not paying much but at least you're making something. And if you're willing to put up with the hard physical work and risk of accidents, there's always decent-paying construction jobs.
I'd say 2-3 months of looking are acceptable. After 6 months, some "plan B" needs to kick in, including the very mentally difficult idea of letting go of the past. You may have been a managing director but for the moment, the only option could be Lidl employee.
There is actually meticulous financial planning required to stay afloat for 2+ years, and i do think it correlates with my professional abilities! Sure, it was reckless to leave but the alternative was to stay and fall into a depression from the routine, constant rejection and financial diet, so i picked what i had to.
I'm not entirely convinced wrt your meticulous financial planning.
I think I was earning less than you yet managed to save the vast majority over my 15 year career earnings. Then my partner died and I was left raising a toddler by myself. It wasn't easy, but at least I don't have financial problems, thanks to a little financial planning.
If you had a long term partner, you're already splitting everything in half, it's a lot easier to save then.
> but the alternative was to stay and fall into a depression from the routine,
You just had to take the European tour for your health.
I'm always surprised when people with "25 years of exp, director of engineering managerial/technical type" don't have significant savings...
It's unknown unknowns.
Had he support his parents, paid for the high school of his niece and for grandma' foster home?
Hadn't his wife left him with kids, taking the home and his new home was far from being paid off?
It’s possible there are unknown circumstances, but this person sold their house and used to proceeds to travel while unemployed. They don’t seem like a great long term decision maker.
Also unknown unknowns there.
Are his parents owners? Is he going to inherit their house? Or other assets? Can he stay at his brother's place once he uses up all the money from the proceeds of house sale?
It's really hard to judge without asking lots of questions first.
In all of the cases you mentioned, selling a home to pay for travel when unemployed despite needing work are all poor long term decisions.
After reading through this thread, do you not think you might be being overly selective? You said you're only really applying to European jobs but hiring people that need working visas is usually a pretty big detractor. No LinkedIn can work, but in the LLM era you need something to prove you're real and you also stated you haven't been asking previous coworkers for referrals. It's very normal here to ask coworkers for referrals so I assume it's a cultural difference? But they usually get you to the interview stage. Your resume is likely not baring you but if you are applying to large enough companies that have thousands of applications on each role, they are using LLMs to filter them down. You should be running your resume against an "Act as a hiring manager" style prompt to see if you're getting filtered that way.
I’m curious about personal connections. I’ve got many fewer years of experience and have had great luck with finding jobs thanks to friends and former colleagues even in tough job markets.
That's something that I've really wondered about too, since I can't count the number of people I hooked up with jobs I asked myself why the pendulum wasn't swinging back. I relocated "to the countryside" a few years ago and lost my big city tech network, where I was very active and even central. Not being on social media means I have very few ways to reach back out these days.
You live in the country with zero LinkedIn connections. Do you even want a tech job?
No need to be snarky, dude is going through a rough time, can use some empathy
Everyone thinks they know better, that's just the nature of people on internet forums. That's why I stopped asking for CV reviews - as soon as people know I'm struggling they come up with pointless edits. His point boils down to "you have no network, physical or digital" which might sound accurate with the information he's got, but isn't in reality because there's obviously more context than what I've shared here. I didn't just sit around brainlessly applying to jobs for two years. I've tried shit.
What have you tried? And why don't you make a LinkedIn now and add the people you know from before?
I don’t think I could easily get a job right now by applying to open positions. I haven’t gotten a job that way since my first job post graduation, and back then it was pretty easy to get into tech.
Sorry to hear it. What country are you in?
Canada, but I'm a rare case that I'm open to relocate anywhere (except the US) and have been working remotely since before it was made popular by the pandemic. So I've been applying literally all over the world for two years (though it's been mostly Europe due to personal preference and desire to relocate there).
Why not the US? Anecdotally, I'm beginning to see the US market pick up again and a TN visa should see you employed pretty quickly.
Because I'm Canadian. There's three places I won't go, the US, Israel and Russia. Happy to work remotely for US, but won't set foot in the place.
The fact you're being questioned about this is insane.
There used to be a 0% chance of being tossed on a plane and deported somewhere else in the world when visiting the US. That chance is now non-zero, which is an unacceptable level of risk for many.
That and everything else going on. There's a reason Canadians have stopped traveling down south...
Business travel from CAN to US has remained stable (see: https://globalnews.ca/video/11436758/business-travel-to-u-s-...). It's leisure that is declining.
Meanwhile, total spending in the US from int'l visitor tourism is up in the US (see: https://www.hotel-online.com/press_releases/release/internat...).
Honestly, I think macro factors -- namely, poor Canadian household finances due to increasing cost of living and declining real incomes in Canada coupled with a strengthening US dollar against the Loonie -- are what are killing tourism from CAN to US right now.
As a Canadian, living shoulder to shoulder with the very folks who used to frequently travel to the US (and being one myself).
I firmly disagree.
Ok; all I can say is what the statistics indicate. It seems like at least some Canadians accept assignments which result in business travel to the US. As with the OC, this may result in more desirable employees to Canadian employers who wish to continue to do business with the US, hence the original question.
In other words, Canadians aren’t going to the US unless someone pays them for it. That’s pretty negative sentiment.
Oh sure. But the important thing -- especially for the OC, who is having a rough time in the job market -- is getting paid to do it.
All of my personal network has stopped non-mandatory travel to the US. I wouldn’t be surprised people wouldn’t resist if their employer told them to go for business, but many Canadians are simply opting out of leisure travel to the United States.
There are plenty of other places to travel is the rationale. besides, if a strong greenback was the reason for decrease of leisure, wouldn’t it also be responsible for a decrease in business travel, too? Certainly businesses are also bound to macroeconomic shifts.
I don't know what to tell you but on the front of:
> There are plenty of other places to travel is the rationale. besides, if a strong greenback was the reason for decrease of leisure, wouldn’t it also be responsible for a decrease in business travel, too? Certainly businesses are also bound to macroeconomic shifts.
Canada has shockingly little choice when it comes to trade partners. They are literally physically attached to the US and trade is much simpler when working with the US, whether Canada likes it or not. CETA hasn't yet been ratified; Canada has bungled trade with China since harper; Mexico is at best a cheap labor destination that can replace India for Canada. The only real staying power Canada has is exporting raw materials, and even that effectively turns Canada into a resource extraction colony. That's not a happy ending, either.
Canadian businesses have fewer options than many would like to admit, so it makes sense they are keeping up their economic activity with the US.
> Meanwhile, total spending in the US from int'l visitor tourism is up in the US
You are disingenuous and spreading a false narrative. Look at that graph's growth numbers. Look at it.
9,8,7,7,8,8,7, Trump takes office, 1, -5, 8, 1, 0, -1. 6mo average from 7.5 to 0.6%.
A seven percent drop to near a zero average propped up by one historic looking value. But 0.6 _is_ "up" so you can be technically correct.
The left hand of the chart in the 2nd link provides some perspective for this year's numbers.
July 2024 through Jan 2025, the YoY numbers are always in the 7%-9% range. Averages to 7.7% across those months.
Feb 2025 to July 2025, there's only a single month (April) in that range. We've got 2 months at 1% YoY growth, one break even, and two negative. Those months average out to about 0.7%. If you include Jan 2025 to align to the calendar year 2025, you get 1.57%, which seems to be the number that becomes 'nearly 2 percent' in the text under the chart.
While it is still positive growth, it's 20% of the YoY growth trend for several months heading up to 2025. If you take out Jan 2025 (2/3 of which Trump was not yet president), it's only 10%.
Their comment about Canada's trade prospects are very telling. They are trying to spin a false narrative (surprise surprise).
In your opinion, what is false about it? Canada's growth segment in exports was minerals and tourism services. That's Canada's situation, unfortunately.
"Non-inflation-adjusted tourist dollars spent" was an odd metric to choose.
The number of international arrivals is down YTD (-3%): https://www.trade.gov/i-94-arrivals-program
Ask any business if they care about revenue or customers. $ is the goal.
Well, that's a personal decision. And personal decisions can have financial costs.
The dilemma to relocate to the US hasn't come up regardless.
The CV info you posted basically says upper management. I'm seeing increasingly that companies centralize management in an office (either city satellites or a hq) and permit developers to either work remote within the geographic region with occasional onsites. I don't know of anybody that would permit a manager (much less someone that is a sr. manager) to be remote which is why I asked.
+1
Do you really need additional clarification on why non-American citizen might choose not to travel to the US for literally any reason? If you do need examples, let me just gesture broadly to the entire US society.
Not really. I even live in one of the cities that is "under siege". It's basically another day.
People read headlines, lock themselves in a cage of their own making, and assume the world is on fire. People would do better trusting their own eyes and ears.
Literally what people said in 1933.
Yeah the comment was aimed at people who think like this. I think you should spend more time in the physical world.
Seconding what the other commenter is saying.
I’m in CA vacationing right now for a month, flew in last week. Literally the same experience getting in, and on the daily, as it’s been for the last decade of visiting annually.
I was talking to my +1 at work before I left, he’s just gotten back from living in OH for the last couple of years for his wife’s job. As much as stuff is seemingly a shit show at the highest levels (which we can all agree on, I reckon), the day to day hasn’t changed all that much. At least not for us privileged techies.
But hey, that’s just two datapoints, so what do I know really.
Can managers/directors of engineering even qualify for a TN under the recent renewed scrutiny?
Yeah. That's actually the only way to get a TN -- to oversee technical work in a managerial capacity. Technical managers of software engineers are 100% able to enter under TN.
What do you mean it's the only way? Computer engineering is a valid TN employment category, among many others.
Sorry - I mean the "only way" as a manager, not as a software/technical professional.
You can't for example, use manager of a McDonalds to qualify as a manager under a TN as far as I understand it. If you are a manager, you need to be technical in nature.
Sorry to ask, but is this another of those comments where there's an unmentioned criminal record lurking behind the story?
Nope
You were a director of engineering and you didn't have more than a year of expenses sitting around?
Directors of Engineering in Eastern Canada make (or made, until recently) < 200k, CAD. That's 145k USD. So no, didn't have much of a golden parachute like the US do.
Are expenses so high there? That’s still more than twice what you’d make here in Western Europe, and you’d have an easy time saving way more than a year of expense here.
A big chunk went into the house I guess
The side effect of stronger employment protection is limited upside and more friction in getting into new positions.
I've been unemployed for almost three years. It's somewhat intentional - at least leaving my last job was and I've been dragging my feet. Hopefully will have a job in upper management at the start of next year if things work out.
Coping by trying my best to become the type of person that I aspire to be. Quit weed, alcohol, caffeine. Lost 20lbs of fat and put on some muscle. Run 6 days a week, lift 3-4 days a week. Meal prep all my foods and getting into a good routine about those things.
Taught myself Rust and ECS and tried my hand at building a game. Built an Arduino prototype of some hardware a friend wanted to see exist, but ended up not trying to take it further. Built a website to help people play a video game better, it became popular while the game was trending, and made ~3-6k/mo running ads on the site. Went to Burning Man for the first time.
Now I'm kind of out of things that sound fun/purposeful and having a purpose dropped into my lap by working on an ongoing project with an existing team sounds more appealing than it did when I left the work world. So, slowly going back that way and hoping to hold onto all my good vibes and positive habits as I do so.
It's not exactly what I expected to spend three years of unemployment doing. I wish I felt more "accomplished" in how I used my time. But idk. Just kept myself busy with things that sounded meaningful in the moment. Now making money sounds more appealing than having more free time so hopefully jumping back in isn't too much of a shock.
Also unemployed for the last 3 years after a layoff. Partially on purpose because I felt I needed a pause to recharge but I kept extending because money was not a problem due to stonks going up.
I learned react, go. Played videogames and had a child. Things are going well.
Part of me is afraid that too much time off the market will make me not fit for the workforce anymore but tbh I feel like my mental health really needed this.
Now I'm faced with a dilemma. Go back to my home country where I probably could retire now at 40 or stay here and try to get back to work. Trump administration has been making my decision easier by the day.
> Go back to my home country where I probably could retire now
May want to consider that things won’t stay the same price for 40 years?
If the money is invested, it should be fine.
This. If the money is invested it should about follow inflation.
I thought caffeine was actually good
https://hsph.harvard.edu/news/is-coffee-good-or-bad-for-your...
I think from a health perspective coffee/caffeine is fine - maybe even good. I wouldn't be shocked if it were good for you.
My reason for wanting to quit caffeine was related to willpower and self-control. I wanted a stronger mind-body connection where I'd readily act on my desires rather than delegating to "I'll do that once I feel properly caffeinated." I was finding that I wasn't doing much with myself after work hours because my energy levels felt low once caffeine wore off and because I wasn't training myself to be comfortable doing things even when I didn't "feel" like doing them. Those behaviors made me uncomfortable with myself, but I never felt like I had the time to address them while working a full-time job. At best, I'd get two day "detoxes" over the weekend and then hop right back on the bean juice Monday morning.
My take on the health benefits of coffee or tea is that it's probably nothing to do with the caffeine, and a lot to do with antioxidants. Both of these drinks are high in antioxidants, and the typical modern diet is low, so for a lot of people caffeinated drinks are a major source of their antioxidant intake. This shows up statistically as coffee and tea increasing longevity, but on an individual level, just make sure you're getting antioxidants from other parts of your diet instead.
Quitting caffeine helped me with anxiety and some mental health stuff. Ymmv
My milage does vary. I swore off caffeine for a decade. Then I discovered that stims restore some cognitive function that I had written off.
The difference is that my anxiety is more interesting (to me) than distressing. I can sometimes leverage it as a mechanism for change.
Granted - this also possible because my anxiety (currently) falls within a range. Turn it up a ½doz notches and I probably won't be mining it for usefulness.
Have you tried tea instead? Its effect is markedly different from coffee. THere should be no anxiety, but still contain that cognitive benefit.
After some thought, I will give tea some fresh consideration. Mostly due to age wiping out my resistance to bad-choice consequences.
I don't drink coffee. I use a drink mix. The anxiety is probably history derived. I'm rolling with it.
I think I’m okay with scheduling my work around those known lulls, but I’m happy you shared your thoughts and perspective about it. Certainly gives me something to think about.
I resonate with that way of thinking a lot.
fwiw: what you did is pretty impressive and hella brave, respect
Not if you’re a slow metabolizer. 15% of the population.
CYP1A2
Increased heart attack risk: A 2006 study found that slow metabolizers who drank four or more cups of coffee per day had a 64% increased risk of a nonfatal myocardial infarction (heart attack) compared to those drinking less than one cup daily. The risk was even higher for slow metabolizers under age 50, who experienced more than four times the risk
No increased risk for fast metabolizers: In the same study, fast metabolizers did not experience an increased risk of heart attack, even with high coffee consumption.
How does one find out being a slow or a fast metabolizer? DNA test?
Get your dna sequenced. A simple 23andme test would do.
https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/caffeine-metabolism-and-you...
Like the other commenter alluded to, if you consume caffeine and your BP remains really elevated past two hours, you’re probably a slow metabolizer.
You can do the basic continuous blood pressure monitoring. Not super precise but should work for categorizing.
Not if you have high blood pressure, both it and salt can affect your B.P. Years ago I suffered with very bad dizzy spells which always began when I tried to get out of bed in mornings. They could last a few days. A doctor said another patient had same symptom and found reducing caffeine intake reduce them. I switched to decaf and progressively they got weaker, ultimately vanishing!
Caffeine withdrawals suck and it's a time and money sink keeping them at bay. I'm an habitual coffee drinker, love the caffeine high and the taste. I still wish I didn't get a headache by noon if I skipped a morning. A few days off the stuff and I'm fine, but it's still bothersome enough that sometimes I think it would justify quitting the habit.
It's enough work as it is staying fed, hydrated and getting a solid 8 hours of sleep. 20 minutes a day on getting your coffee fix is like 2 hours a week you could put to better purposes. Your article doesn't quantify the benefits, it just says there's some, that leads me to suspect that they're fairly minimal. Maybe getting an extra 2 hours of sleep or exercise would do more for your health.
It's neither good nor bad in absolute terms. It can be misused, abused, and overdone like any substance.
In my experience, the people who benefit from quitting caffeine were either using far too much of it, were drinking it too late in the day (interferes with sleep), or were using it to cover up other problems like poor sleep habits.
The person drinking a cup or two of green tea in the mornings after going to bed on time is going to have a different relationship than the person drinking very strong coffee drinks all day long to stay awake because they've been scrolling on their phone until 2AM every night instead of trying to sleep on time.
For those who can't metabolize it it's a net negative. Even a sip in the morning keeps me on edge the whole day and delays my sleep onset by around an hour.
I am on my sabatical now which I started to recover from burnout working in early stage startup. I stopped drinking coffee. I have drunk 4 to 8 coffees daily at work. It helped me to survive the day but I did not enjoy the taste. It was like eating pills. Also it did not help with sleep at night and rest during the day. I have not drink coffee or green tea for 4 months and now I have started again because I crave for coffee taste but I drink way less (3-4 coffees a week). Good think is that I enjoy it again, it helps me concentrate and also it does not interfere with my rest and sleep. The same applies to alcohol even in small amounts. It helps you to cope with overwork but it drains you in long term.
edit: So it is not only about health but also about satisfaction and well being.
When I see my interns drinking Red Bull for work: I get it that you have extremely high career objectives, but maybe you’re stressing about them more than working on them.
Worst case, you can work 8hrs during the day and study 3hrs in the evening with or without Red Bull: in both cases you’ll end up burnt out, you can just force it for a few months more with drugs.
> Hu said that moderate coffee intake—about 2–5 cups a day
5 cups of coffee per day is moderate?
The definition of "cup of coffee" used in studies often doesn't match the type of coffee drinks that people consume.
Typically, when someone cites these numbers they're referring to total caffeine intake under 400mg. It would be 5 small cups of mild coffee.
You can exceed this number with a single drink from Starbucks.
True. But if you drink more than that, you should be using bigger cups.
The dose makes the poison.
And genetics. Caffeine is a net negative for slow metabolizers.
And other environmental factors that affect enzyme levels, as seems to be the case for me.
What industry do you want to work in? Pick a vertical market and make stuff for it. Look at government RFI/RFP to see what is needed, follow the trends.
> wish I felt more "accomplished" in how I used my time.
Idk man I think a lot of people here would be proud to have knocked off even one of those things on that list. The lifestyle changes alone are huge accomplishments. I also wouldn’t downplay the significance of spending a little time doing nothing. Probably added some years to your life
This a thousand times! I've taken some years off work, but never three in a row: I don't think I'd manage it as well as you did.
I remember taking an incredibly light and schedule-y advantageous semester in college my junior year. I barely had to go to class and they were all frontloaded on Monday/Tuesday basically. I had so much free time and all these grand plans, none of which I actually followed through on lol
Honestly, if you didn't struggle financially, it seems to me that you've had a pretty good time and that your perception that you're not accomplished enough in how you used your time is mostly a byproduct of our tendency to always be unsatisfied rather than stemming from your past few years having truly lacked purpose :-)
How do you go from unemployed for 3 years straight to upper management? Were you already in a similar position in the past? I would think 3 years unemployed may not look good to people who don’t share your personal views (no judgement, I think if you’ve been unemployed for 3 years it shows good financial planning, I just doubt my conservative family would see it the same)
My last role was staff engineer/team lead. The company I was with was acquired and I was asked to take director of engineering post-acquisition. I was pretty stressed out about how the acquisition was being mismanaged and declined the role, but stayed at the company for another year when 95% of my coworkers left. I generated a lot of goodwill with the PE firm and C-suite during this time.
After I left, the PE firm finished the ~failed merger, flipped the company to another buyer, and the PE firm placed the CTO at another company. I've remained friends with the CTO and we have a monthly/bi-monthly check-in. He was very supportive of my side-projects and would've helped fund anything that I said had legs, but is equally eager to work with me again if given the opportunity. The company he's working at is going through a reorg and a position he thinks I'd be a good fit for (admittedly a growth opportunity) should open up.
If that falls through and I'm not able to get a warm intro somewhere then you're absolutely right. I'd focus on applying for IC positions, but clearly communicate that I'm interested in taking on leadership ASAP.
Making games in rust in retirement is my plan. Not, you know, good games (zero game dev experience), or games that anyone would realistically want to play, but seems like it would be interesting to learn.
Yeah exactly :) I had no experience and, if I'm being honest, I was shit at game dev, but boy is it a nice means of creative self-expression. (https://github.com/MeoMix/symbiants/ / https://ant.care/)
It's really fulfilling to be able to show people your work and have them play with it. It's so different than like.. spec'ing out a new database schema and then building some APIs over it. They're both coding, but one's a little harder to have a convo about at the dinner table.
Rust is such a mature language to use coming from a JavaScript background. I don't think it makes the best language for writing good games because it's too challenging to write bad prototypes you intend to throw away. You have to refactor frequently and code-compile-run loop is so slow. The lack of quick prototyping discourages me from playing around with ideas that might not work out and that makes for a worse game. However, as a programmer, Rust is an incredibly satisfying language to write in. Everything you do always feels very technically correct. The Rust quip that "if it compiles then it probably works" is very accurate and is a continuous source of pleasure.
Not to push you into the rabbit hole but... have you looked into bolting some sort of scripting language onto your Rust program for quick prototyping?
I haven't looked into it seriously, no. Scripting support in Bevy (the ECS framework I was exploring) is pretty limited. There's an add-on that can provide unofficial support for LUA (https://github.com/makspll/bevy_mod_scripting) but I doubt that would be compatible with a WASM build target.
>I doubt that would be compatible with a WASM build target.
In principle, I don't see why not. In practice, yeah I can see it. In both cases, can't know without checking, and I haven't. Bevy is pretty cool though!
My drive-by suggestions would be more along the lines of https://github.com/mattwparas/steel, or the very ad-hoc embedded language of https://github.com/elkowar/eww, or perhaps most pertinently https://kdl.dev/
Maybe one of those would be minimal enough for the rest of the engine to not manage to get your way, as frameworks are known to do. As always, happy hacking!
s|your way|in the way|
As someone coming on 30 months of retirement, I'm consciously shifting away from toy projects to projects where I commit to a more polished deliverable.
It helps with commitment and pursuing a deeper learning of the activity instead of doing quick and dirty stuff in my experience. Just don't expect it (or aim for it) to be a steam top-seller, my aim is usually to have at least one other stranger get some amount of value out of what I produce.
Not to say there isn't a place for quick and dirty projects, of course. Bespoke 3D models to fix things around the house are my current favourite category for that.
I’d like to invest time into the Linux gaming ecosystem. Though it’s a little daunting that so much of the work would need to be done by Nvidia and major game studios that don’t really care.
Windows just feels irredeemably mediocre at this point. Maybe Windows 12 will improve things, but I’ve been pretty down on 11.
I'll see how I really feel when it happens but when I retire I don't want to look at a computer for a very long time. I suppose after some time I might get drawn back but I plan to de-tech my life as much as I can.
Beast mode
My friend, so much self-work, you should be proud. Contentedness comes from within. If you think about it, do you really want your worth to be determined by your career? Really? After beating the vices, investing in yourself? I'm proud of you.
There is no "accomplishment". Get off twitter and instagram, and seek contentedness. Everything else is creative self-deceit or comparison games on a rubric that is artificial and asinine.
No one actually cares about your title. Or rather, you probably know that them validating your title isn't really what's going to matter to you? Or is it? Why?
I say this with love, I spent a lot of time (albeit voluntarily) unemployed asking myself such questions. Good luck.
I had a bout of poor health. And now I'm isolated and I don't know how to get reconnected to other people.
I'm not coping terribly well. I think what is most distressing is that I am observing a decline in my capacity. I feel mentally sluggish. I frustrate more easily. I tire more easily. Probably most worryingly to me I get spikes of aggression that lead to combative outbursts. I feel less empathetic, even mildly sadistic at times. Very hard to control the envy and the average person I interact with evokes envy.
Everyone in my life tells me I need to get working again (yes thank you it's obvious). Not even for the money, but just to have a purpose and structure and a social life. A common sentiment. But I've come to understand that it is backwards. Employment is secondary, and it follows from having a social network and being embedded in a social context.
Poverty alters your brain in strange ways. For an example I've been thinking about lately, the world is getting very small. I was late for an important appointment. It simply did not occur to me to take a taxi. I just don't do that anymore. It's sort of categorically ruled out as "expensive luxury". Such a difference from a few years ago! Would have ordered the taxi without even thinking.
On the plus side I quit smoking and lost a bunch of weight and I'm physically in the best shape I've ever been.
Can you volunteer? I volunteer through work, but it's a great way to meet some nice people for a few hours and do something nice.
> I'm not coping terribly well. I think what is most distressing is that I am observing a decline in my capacity. I feel mentally sluggish. I frustrate more easily. I tire more easily. Probably most worryingly to me I get spikes of aggression that lead to combative outbursts. I feel less empathetic, even mildly sadistic at times. Very hard to control the envy and the average person I interact with evokes envy.
This is textbook major depressive disorder. I know you probably don't want to hear that, but you're basically describing a classic case of depressive symptoms.
> Employment is secondary, and it follows from having a social network and being embedded in a social context.
I'm sorry, but viewing these two things as connected or expecting one to follow the other isn't helpful. We all need a social life and we all need employment, but tying the two of those together isn't healthy. It's important to have a social life outside of work. It's important to have a job that isn't equivalent to your social life.
What’s the difference between “depressive” and depression?
You realize social isolation causes MDD? Parent probably knows he has MDD, but does it matter what it’s called. A rose by another name…
Don't underestimate the nicotine withdrawal for making you feel crabby - I've heard that anecdote many times. The nice thing is ... that one gets better with time.
If you can I'd chat to my doctor about Adhd and trying something like concerta! I'm able to recognize many of the things you are mentionning here and had positive effects from methylphenidate.
ADHD isn't a condition which spontaneously appears mid-life following an obvious difficult event like losing one's job for an extended period.
The comment was clear that these symptoms appeared after the job loss. It's a match for the symptoms of a depressive episode (which can and does appear after a difficult life situation) but not ADHD.
Suggesting that the commenter seek out stimulant medication is not good advice.
I've suggested them to chat with their doctor.
Many (including myself) have been successfully living with symptoms without treatment, but seeked my eoctors advice after having similar symptoms after a similar situation, and the result was adhd medication which helped.
Suggesting that someone talks to their doctor about symptoms is reasonable advice.
Edit0: and I wouldn't go around diagnosing people with depressive episodes from a single comment, were I in your shoes. Let their practicians do diagnoses, you know?
He is unemployed which likely means he has no doctor or that high end health care if the sort you’re assuming is not something he has access to. Poor Americans can go to the ER, but talking to someone with knowledge and capacity to prescribe psychotropics is not how this works.
That's almost only the USA you know
YCombinator is an American company, but beyond that you are “almost” correct.
https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/news-and-features/latest-news/deta...
Did I tell Ycombinator to talk to their doctor?
Is that link about accessing your GP?
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. Good luck going forward.
One small step at a time. Small victories add up. Wishing you the best.
Have you considered joining the cult known as crossfit? They have fantastic community. Church as well.
Took me 15 months to find a job after a layoff and then I accepted the first offer that came, which is basically worse in every aspect compared to my previous job. I've read all your stories and feel unexpectedly so connected with each of you. It can be hard. I just want to wish you all the best.
I don't know you either, but I feel weirdly and unexpectedly connected to your message too. I'm 4 months into a layoff, still hunting. Appreciate your message!
I could have written this comment myself word for word except my unemployment lasted 12 months. I hope we all find our way back into better jobs someday and I sincerely appreciate your comment.
Same wishes back to you too. I'm glad you found something.
I've been unemployed for about 1 year now. I was in SF working in tech for about 7 years, and decided I don't want to do that anymore, so I quit.
It's been tough. The hardest part about being unemployed is it is very hard to structure your days because work is no longer the thing that is forcing you to get up, get out, go to bed on time, etc. It's also a strange feeling having to spend from your savings/emergency fund without money coming in, you feel bad and guilty for doing so, it's weird.
I'm changing careers. I've always liked teaching, so I'm doing volunteer english teaching while preparing to apply to go back to school in order to get a Masters in Education.
In the mean time, I'm also doing other small things. Learning about AI, going to board game meetups, doing some traveling, overall it's not the most fun part of my life, but I'm treating it as I will look back on this and realize this was necessary.
> The hardest part about being unemployed is it is very hard to structure your days
The irony is that it takes a lot more personal discipline to remain productive without any sort of feedback loop, but the unemployed are presumptively regarded as flawed and lazy :-)
I was in tech for over 20 years, and went from being good at my job/successful to being permanently disabled. My entire life was wired around providing for my family and supporting everyone around me both financially, and via my success.
I've lost that identity, and despite extensive therapy, meds, etc. I still haven't found myself yet.
I know I'll be okay, however.
Stay frosty. Things will work out. Cheers!
I have that identity, ie being the pillar of stability and support for those around me.
One thing I worry about is getting a stroke or become blind, paralyzed or similar.
Having lost people around me or seen them fall seriously ill , made me realize things can change so quickly.
I admire ppl like yourself who keep going.
Or people like Paul De Gelder, who lost the majority of their limbs and then just keep going and seem to thrive.
I wonder how ppl like that change their mindset after such life events. What happens in the brain? Is it via therapy or effectively deciding to make the best with the cards you’ve been dealt.
From what you wrote, it sounds like you haven’t lost a core pillar of your identity, which is a positive mindset.
Wishing you the best on your new path ahead.
What happened, if I can ask? Re permanently disabled
> The hardest part about being unemployed is it is very hard to structure your days
Best thing I’ve found for structure is renting a desk in a coworking space
Cheapest are taking a walk at the same time and putting on “work” clothing
I'm hitting 2 years of unemployment in a month. Its somewhat intentional, the day after I became unemployed (I quit) I started to learn Elixir and began work on building a MMO-type game (this was unplanned). Why? Because I like distributed systems programming. I didn't expect to still be working on it 2 years later. Honestly there was no plan or expectation. I got sucked into this project and it was better than having to look for a job. Its fulfilling and intellectually stimulating. The game has public playtests and I have some interested players.
But now I'm hitting 2 years and the money is starting to dry up so I need to find work again. I always thought working on this type of project would be a win-win for finding work again, but it hasn't helped much. It may even be a hinderance. Employers/Recruiters don't take it seriously or see it as some exotic work experience. I try to tell them - Distributed Systems...the concepts are the same wherever you go. No dice. I'm on the younger side and have 3 years of professional experience at a payments startup doing backend + devops + AWS. Sometimes I wonder if I screwed myself out of the job market. I'm seen as a Junior Dev with a 2 year work experience gap.
I cope by staying in shape. I have a good routine and I even got into swimming over the past year! I think if it wasn't for these activities I would've fell into despair some time ago.
A tip about independent projects on a resume. Put yourself as an employee, a hired contractor, or just a technical co-founder. Don't mention that you're the solo or main founder, unless it's a far past project. I've learned the hard way that regardless of what they may say about looking for autonomous, free thinking, resourceful, self-starters, basically all the qualities of an entrepreneur, employers balk at the label. Some will reject a good profile if they don't feel that you'll be around for more than 2 years, even though many of their recent hires are gone shortly after a single year.
List what the technical challenges of the projects were, what its promoters expected, and how you addressed everything. Don't let entrepreneurial merits overshadow technical ones, especially if you're not after a position like product manager in a company that truly understands how to employ entrepreneurs.
Another way to think about it is that the perception that someone else took a risk on you seems more valuable to employers than you being crazy enough, audacious enough, or courageous enough to dare take on life.
Link to your game? Would love to check it out
Nvm found it will try later since I’m on mobile.
https://swarmmo.games/
I was arrested for reasons I still do not understand for 1.5 years as the charges and reason(s) for my arrest make no sense, so in that sense, yes. Developed intensified bipolar disorder while locked up in jail. Biding my time until the charges get dropped or I get declared innocent by a judge so I can file a lawsuit against the police department. All that's left to do is wait, either for lawsuit time or for job applications to come through and hope there isn't a thorough background check (there hasn't been for most of my positions so far).
If your line of work is amenable to independent contracting you might consider setting up a company that you can work through rather than raw dogging 1099. I ran a security consulting company for about ten years and only on exceedingly rare (and obvious) circumstances would we have to submit background checks.
I've tried the consultancy route, but I am just not good enough at marketing myself to develop repeat business. I have an Upwork profile and tried freelancing for a bit, but it's just not worth having to purchase "connects" to initiate a bid proposal and time and again not be selected for the work (yes, I add in a cover letter message on every proposal).
Yes these platforms seem like rippoff.
You pay for connects and most proposals aren't even read.
Then if you do land work, you pay a % to the platform.
Seems to me like it should be one or the other not both.
I am sincerely sorry. I wish we would take the ever-intensifying War On Redemption seriously.
Or at least realize the existence of it happening all around us (crim recs, credit reports, ever harsher laws driven by crim-just industry lobbyists, etc).
Do you think you developed Bipolar in gaol or was it just a late onset?
I developed a new set of symptoms that I did not have before jail. Cartoons and characters saying different things as voices when I get overly self conscious about certain things.
I just want to say I'm really sorry you are struggling with voices and self consciousness. Not being able to escape our own minds is a feeling I don't wish on anyone and I hope you all the best through your struggles.
Thank you so much! Thankfully I have a good support system, so it's not all bad news. It mostly just means I have to avoid RTO by any means necessary because I have no idea if symptoms might emerge in the middle or end of a work day. Working on positive ways to manage it in therapy so that's good news as well.
If it helps I'm also in jail right now where I came down with a different disorder, multiple personality disorder. Hi there! Me too, I'm also in jail and also got diagnosed with multiple personality disorder. Hello, I'm a lawyer and I'm hoping to sue the state on behalf of my two friends here.
Fun fact amy_petrik, you are in fact in a jail of your own making, which you might not even be seeing right now.
We think it's because you have robbed yourself of consciousness.
Give it back.
Ooh, that's one of "fun" ones alright. Can happen if the perceptual validator has encysted the behavioral corrector. (Or vice versa I guess; I just ripped out mine since they were known bad; other story - point is, being unable to examine things too closely is part of the whole predicament) Jail as liminal space makes total sense as the environment for habitual workarounds to fray and the underlying issue to manifest.
Check this out. By directing your attention, you should be able to flip the polarities of either circuit and/or the "cyst" (i.e. the connection your mind makes between the two, before proceeding to disavow it; speculated transmissible). If works anything like a logic gate which determines the content of your spontaneous reaction and/or reflection to contradictory percepts and/or concepts, by messing with its truth table you should be able to switch between selective deafness, a Freudian slip, stuttering, and the one you're currently having.
Source: never sat, just hung out. "You thought radical freedom is the answer? Let's see how you handle being locked up with all other people who thought radical freedom was the answer!" is a pretty fucked up basis for a society and also a thing.
Why the downvotes, (purportedly) sapient ones? Don't yall ever debug yallselves? Figures...
The writing is very "crazy-person-like". I didn't downvote though, since I don't have this ability yet.
Wow, thank you for your service.
> gaol
The only time I've ever seen "jail" spelled this way was in Elden Ring, and I had to look it up to see how it's supposed to be pronounced to learn that it's an Old English way of spelling "jail" and is pronounced like "jail".
Curious if you've been playing a lot of Elden Ring or if there's another reason you chose this spelling.
I've seen it a couple of times from British writers. But it's definitely a weird spelling that's on its way out.
Common until a hundred years or so ago. We also don't have the jail/prison distinction that the US has, and they're all officially called "His Majesty's Prison X" so it's not a common word in British English anymore, except in US import. So "jail" is now standard if used.
Obnoxious attention-seeking Australians like to do this. It's best not to respond to them, you're giving them exactly what they want.
What are the charges? Please be honest.
Obstruction of justice (???), simple battery of a police officer (I ran into a police officer while trying to flee).
You said you have a support system, can’t they help with the charges and getting you out of jail?
Not that I'm in charge of hiring anything, but I'd consider "has fought a cop" as a strong positive signal for any sort of computer programming role.
..flee from what? i feel like maybe that's the bigger picture
but yeah making a cop stub their toe is gonna make anyone have a bad time. im sorry the justice system is failing you.
My first instinct is to run from the cops no matter what just because I've been assaulted by them enough for one lifetime. One doesn't have to be breaking any law to end up targeted by some crazy cop, American police are like rabid animals.
agreed, and again sorry you're going through this
Yes. 3 years. Marriage ended. Sold everything.
But emotionally, much better off than last year.
Making ends meet with a return to non-tech after a 3 decade break. Won’t ever stop doing that at least part-time, going forward, for security. For tech, focused on a body of work to create opportunities.
Optimistic.
I’ve done all this but the marriage ending part. Although many days I question if that’s the next step.
All the best
can i ask what the non-tech job is? im considering this too but the idea of stocking shelves at target makes me feel miserable
Finding the new angle to something I had previously found demeaning, was the key step to improving things for me. I think that is personal to our own journeys.
But more or less miserable than the idea of living out of your car and eating stolen cans of cat food?
Listen, nobody wants to admit they ate 12 cans of chef boyardi
I've been out of work coming up to six years. I had to look after my dad during the pandemic. I've been looking for work in London, UK, since January. During that time I've had a total of 2 interviews. Recruiters, who seem to do a keyword search only, message me from time-to-time on LinkedIn. I reply and they almost invariably never respond, presumably because they look more closely and see the large gap in employment.
What complicates things for me is being legally blind. I have enough vision to use a computer, but not much else and so I don't have the breadth of career options available to me that most people do. I need a way back in.
I keep reading, and I keep playing with code like I always have. I'm comfortable with C#, JavaScript and their respective ecosystems. It's like riding a bike. But convincing other people of that, recruiters especially, is proving to be a problem.
As for how I'm coping, I'm very up and down. It's hard not to feel that my career might be over. So when interviews have come up, I'm extremely nervous despite never having that problem in the past where I'd usually interview well.
Somehow, at least for now, I've kept going. Thanks for starting the thread.
FWIW I’m Hoping that the combination of AI and ridiculously powerful small devices will finally get us to the point where we can interact with computers primarily through voice. A limiting factor seems to be misunderstanding what’s actually required, and you likely have insight and can build experience there. So if you were able to on your own time, build some small systems and demonstrate effective voice interaction, that might lead to some interesting work, and benefit others. From C#, you might be able to transition easily to Swift and target the Apple ecosystem, which has an a lot more accessibility support, and also has the possibility of becoming an independent developer.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. It's funny you mention this, because I've wondered about something similar. But I'm not sold on computers being controlled primarily through voice while CEOs demand a return to the office. It would make an office too noisy which makes me think remote work would be a necessary precondition for it.
You're correct about becoming an independent developer though. This whole experience made me realise that needs to be my goal if the tech industry can toss me aside at a moment's notice. I need a job to do that safely though. It's too risky on its own.
Fwiw and you probably know but being almost legally blind puts you in a protected class, most employers would make exceptions to allow you to do your job. And it would be entirely reasonable to say that you need speech to text tools to work and don’t want to bother other coworkers.
Edit: was speaking from a US perspective before realizing you were in the UK, but would be surprised if you didn’t have even better protections
Extra edit: this hit the front page a while back about a blind developers dev setup: https://www.vincit.com/blog/software-development-450-words-p... it may be outdated at this point but maybe worth reaching out for best practices these days?
You're in the UK: take advantage of the various schemes that allow people with disabilities to get guaranteed first interviews.
If you need any software job you might even have luck with graduate schemes at companies like BT who I believe will have similar shortcuts through recruitment for those with disabilities.
> You're in the UK: take advantage of the various schemes that allow people with disabilities to get guaranteed first interviews.
I didn't know about this! For anyone else who might benefit, it looks like it's the Disability Confident Scheme: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/disability-confide...
Thank you so much.
Also access to work: https://www.gov.uk/access-to-work.
You looking at startups? I’ve seen a few started by people who turned their deafness or blindness into a new idea / product.
I've had one idea in mind for a few years now. It's outside of my normal skill set so it's risky to pursue at the moment. But maybe I should start putting a little time into it even if it's just to help recharge my batteries somewhat.
A11y is a field with a high economic potential and with an incredibly supportive community.
For recharging batteries, I warmly recommend to join the A11y Slack: use its search function, explore your idea further, or find interesting new contacts.
I’ve requested an invite link for you. When it gets accepted, you should get an email – feel free to click (or ignore) it!
No risk no reward. Might be an energizing challenge for you.
"I reply and they almost invariably never respond, presumably because they look more closely and see the large gap in employment."
Ive long thought about this problem. I think the issue is we dont have an objective mechanism to understand ones capability. Because thats really what matters.
Two people can have the same YOE, but how do you know which is more capable? Interviews are a terrible way to guage this, but is the present day mechanism thats used.
It's not obvious what a better method would be.
Personally I think it is obvious what a better method could be if it could exist.
The question is how to get that thing to exist.
If you think there is a better way, explore it and find out. I mean that sincerely. What is obvious to you isn't necessarily obvious to anyone else. You never know what may come of it.
Thats exactly what im doing. Im working on a project with the UK govt.
I've been happily unemployed since 2022. Not planning to be employed ever again. Have enough money for the rest of my life already. Not because I'm rich, but because I live cheaply.
Working on self-improvement: excercise, eat/sleep well, defeat phone addiction, become social. I enjoy drugs once a week. I travel all year in some beautiful places. Spend ~2 hours every day trying to find a wife.
In 5-10 years (wifed up or wifeless), I'll buy a house in the forest and spend the rest of my life playing piano, studying math, and creating tech for fun.
Not trying to counter you but this is the definition of rich. This modern idea that rich means you have infinite money and many Lamborghinis is odd - rich is being independent, with the ability to travel and do whatever you want, for the rest of your life. It’s OK to be rich, it doesn’t reflect poorly on you!
But doing whatever you want is very personal ; for some people that's driving a different Lambo every day of the week, sitting on a yacht with staff, owning private jets. For others it's travelling and doing whatever they want. For others it's staying home and just having a nice life. I would say if what you consider a good life you can do that until you perish, you are rich.
My best friend lives of about E500/mo; hates travelling (so never does) and has been the happiest person I know since he moved from north EU to south. Sold his company before the move for a few 100k and as such can do what he wants the rest of his life. Most people would not consider him rich ; quite the opposite, but most people want 'stuff' and travel, both of which are usually costly.
k, I'm rich then :D
You're wealthy for sure! Well done!
Even if living cheaply, to do those things you listed and staying retired, you would need a few hundreds of thousands.
That sounds rich to me.
mkey, i'm rich
Can you comment on the finantial situation that allows you to do that?
They said they live cheaply.
I think most people just don't get this. It's quite possible to be happy not spending that much money.
2 hours everyday trying to find a wife! What does that entail? Do you have some very specific requirements/high standards?
2 hours of daygame. Yes, high standards. I had the perfect gf 10 yrs ago, anything less will keep me regretful. 80% of the population is obese, just for a start. I estimate I like 0.1%.
A word of caution: sometimes the best wife is not the perfect girlfriend.. Hope you find yours..
These are my life goals. I'm still too scared to pull the trigger.
I was unemployed for 14 months in 2023/2024.
It definitely hit my self-esteem, as well as 401(k).
I ended up taking a job with Microsoft, but it was a poor fit because I hate the company as well as the product area I was in.
As soon as I could I found another employer that, while not perfect, I'm much happier with.
And this is how corrupt abusive companies can keep thriving. People will tell you "vote with your feet" from their high horse but it just doesn't work. These companies will always find somebody else to fill that role. The person needs the job more than the company does.
EDIT: Oh, wow, so much disagreement. 30 minutes, 3 downvotes, 0 comments. So tell me _where_ I am wrong.
Microsoft is not an abusive employer. Most people today or at any point in human history would envy the typical Microsoft job. Pretty much all large tech companies are similar in this respect. If your employer is actually abusing you in some way you should contact a lawyer. If you simply have a distaste for your employer you should seek alternative employment.
The defeatist "all corps are evil" mentality will not do you any good.
I didn't say it's an abusive employer but an abusive company.
It always fought against open source. Embrace, extend, extinguish. It always stifled innovation. Internet Explorer 6. And now, it bought GitHub and then plagiarized all public and private projects hosted on it. GPL cannot exist in a world where you can build a statistical model of the code and mechanically reproduce its functionality while somehow losing the GPL licensing in the process.
Also, calling it "defeatist" has no base in what I wrote. I didn't even write anything about corporations. Abuse has a much simpler description - using a power differential to benefit yourself at other people's expense.
> I didn't say it's an abusive employer but an abusive company.
A confusing distinction to make in a thread about employment.
> It always fought against open source.
They've since admitted this was a mistake, and in 2020 were cited as the single largest contributor to open source projects: https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/18/21262103/microsoft-open-s...
> And now, it bought GitHub and then plagiarized all public and private projects hosted on it.
This is news to me. Are you claiming Microsoft/GitHub used or sold private source code for training LLMs?
> They've since admitted this was a mistake
Don't anthropomorphize organizations. It was no longer beneficial for them to openly fight open source so instead the people in charge decided they needed to get developer mindshare by changing their public signaling. The sad thing is many people fell for it. They can just as easily switch back at any time when it becomes beneficial.
BTW, the phrasing "Microsoft has embraced open source" is very ironic and given my previous paragraph, it is a nice foreshadowing or what can come next at any time.
> Are you claiming Microsoft/GitHub used or sold private source code for training LLMs?
I have not seen it denied in any official communication. After skimming this question[0], nobody else could either and the phrasing in their FAQ is oddly specific about Business and Enterprise. So yes, given their patterns of behavior, it's very likely and I will consider it true until proven otherwise.
But that's not the biggest issue. That is that every LLM or LLM-adjacent company (Microsoft included) seems to suddenly argue that a mechanical transformation of input data is enough to erase licensing and attribution.[1] Free software licenses like GPL simple cannot exist in this environment. In fact, any licenses would have exactly 0 meaning.
See a program you want with a license you don't want? Just run it through a sufficiently complex black box and out the other side you have an identically behaving program which according to big-tech has no relation to the input. You can even do this with closed source software if you run it through a decompiler first.
I recall a MS CEO shouting something about developers when developers were the thing they needed most. Now they can train NNs on the devs' own work to imitate and replace the devs so devs are no longer valuable and get thrown under the bus.
Oh and MS employees are apparently forced to use LLMs by management...
[0]: https://github.com/orgs/community/discussions/135400
[1]: This is a convenient 180° turn after for example people who had ever seen windows source code could not contribute to wine.
I don't think anybody needs a job at Microsoft. The compensation is well above the US median income. If you believe Microsoft to be corrupt and abusive (I personally don't but reasonable people can disagree) there are many other opportunities to work for more virtuous organizations if you're willing to accept lower compensation.
I see this sentiment (that if someone can get a FANG job then they can get a startup job easily) on here all the time, and it is a belief that needs to die.
When I took an offer at Google I had literally been searching for months and had no other offers.
Years later, after a couple years career break I had been searching for months and could hardly get startups to talk to me, but X and Meta seemed very interested (I was not interested in them).
I know it sounds intuitive that if someone can land a gig at one of the large companies then they can easily get a job at someplace that's doing "good work" but this is often not the case.
I think it's probably not your intent, but this sort of feels like a humble brag. Reason being that 14 months is far short of "over two years", and I think that a job offer from Microsoft is something that a lot of people would be thrilled with.
It didn't come across to me that way at all, not even a little.
Because you might be in a similar situation.
Don't know if true and if not might be close, but I recently saw the average compensation at Microsoft is ~200k...
I was paid closer to $145k while at Microsoft, and the health insurance fory locality kinda sucked (according to my wife, who manages that part of our lives).
And I didn't stay long enough fory stock grant to vest at all (IIRC).
I was paid closer to $145k while at Microsoft, and the health insurance fory locality kinda sucked (according to my wife, who manages that part of our lives).
I got lowballed by a certain washington state based company. Was no where close to that number.
Edit: was slightly lower than the number the sibling comment mentioned.
I appreciate the feedback. I often fail to anticipate how my words will be heard until it's too late.
FWIW, the main points I was trying to convey are:
1) Even 14 months was really hard me.
2) Only because I had a 401(k) to tap did I avoid disaster.
3) Even after long unemployment there can, in some cases, be a path back to a reasonable career.
I guess I get it, but also the person just answered the question.
I'm commenting because I get self-conscious of over sharing. Being asked a direct question and answering it, should be good shouldn't it?
I don't really agree that they answered the question directly. The OP asks:
> Has anyone else been unemployed for over two years? How are you coping?
I view the first question as actually being more of a selector trying to narrow down the discussion to people who are in the same boat and are currently unemployed for 2+ years. So not applicable to the parent. And they don't even attempt to answer the second question.
Of course anyone is free to comment on HN, and discussions in comments frequently go off topic. And I do think that 14 months is a long enough time to be able to empathize with with the OP is going through.
But I guess what I personally would like to have seen is some acknowledgement that "I know the question was directed at people who are unemployed for 2+ years, but..." and trying to answer the OPs question of how to cope. And also some acknowledgement that a job at Microsoft, while maybe not a good fit for the parent, is actually quite a privilege.
It's relevant even if not a perfect match.
Discouraging people from posting positive anecdotes is not the goal, either. If anything, positive stories are very valuable in threads like this.
I was unemployedish (some freelancing) for around 18 months and I'm starting what I think might be my dream job on Monday.
I was very burnt out after being fired / laid off from multiple unethical tech startups and a divorce.
During the ego death I realized that I no longer had any desire to do work that wasn't making the world a better place. I considered changing careers because it's very hard to find software jobs in that space but I kept searching. I remained sane by reminding myself that suffering is temporary and the world is still beautiful in many ways.
I got hired by a local community college to work on some very hard software problems and I couldn't be happier. I get to continue working with the stuff I love while helping people achieve upward mobility.
Those are some great realisations.
Working on projects that help society and people can give you so much energy. I experienced it once and want to get back to that. Especially important during these trying times.
Curious to know, what are those hard software problems?
Short term: Work with various departments to pull all student-related data into a data warehouse. Then apply data analysis techniques to try and find the patterns in student failure where the college can offer more support.
Long term: Add in machine learning to automate the most tedious parts of the college's processes. The idea being that we could automate query writing, data linking, etc for reporting, grant proposals, etc. Not without human supervision of course but still saving a ton of time.
The software problems themselves will be hard but I'm sure there will be a lot of hard social problems too.
I'm also starting on Monday after two years without work, godspeed to you!
Congratulations, friend. I hope it works out well for you. :)
I've been for much longer. Was unemployed when I developed cancer, and I had dead-beat doctors, so it went undiagnosed for too long and became chronic. During that time I developed a second unrelated cancer (which I have genetic disposition for) when my immune system was occupied with the first, and also COVID. Waiting, surgeries and treatments took two years.
After recovering, the Swedish employment office pushed me into a program for "job training" saying that it would help me ease into working again after my illness. I was already recovering and feeling well, working out and doing occasional charity work. I wanted to change career and get job market training to become a machinist (a non-declining job market where I wouldn't have to be exposed to AI), but was barred from that because of the program.
The company I was assigned to intern at (as an A/V programmer) claimed they wanted to hire me afterwards. It wasn't really what I wanted but I accepted it as a "consolation price" because it was at least (supposed to be...) a job. They conspired behind my back to extend the internship period into a full year. First on my last day did they offer to hire me ... except now only if they could get a government handout for doing so — and that handout would be granted only if I had a disability. I told the employment office No when they asked, but they still required me to continue working until the decision was cleared, which took another month and a half. I am not disabled ... so I didn't get hired.
No training, no job, a year of work for only unemployment checks, and overstressed with new physical outcomes: I've got a cold, the shingles and lichen ruber planus (stress-related rash) during the summer.
Thanks for sharing your story.
You sound tough as nails overcoming all those things.
Lost my job on new year's day, 2020. Have not worked since. I am not considered skilled enough for the kind of work I imagine most readers here do, meaning no degree or certifications and I've never worked in tech, mostly worked food service and manufacturing, plus odd jobs. So my context might seem irrelevant to some who frequent this site.
When I say I have not worked since, I am only referring to taxable income. Helping my mom put down mulch for her flower garden didn't require a W-2 or I-9 but I still was paid. That's mostly how I have been getting by, odd jobs for family members and friends, with a bit of reselling junk I find on the street as art.
I also live in a very low cost of living area and am very fortunate that my landlord has never increased my rent. My rent is considered shockingly low, even for this poverty dense area. I am by nature very frugal, to extremes at times, like with clothing (all from a thrift store, frequently repaired myself with needle and thread) and furniture from the side of the road.
I always wanted to work in tech. College did not work out for me (I've tried 5 times at 3 different schools) thanks in part to ADHD/bipolar/autism/whatever they call it now, with the closest I've come being a job at a call center. At this point I'm too old for food service and was never good at it anyways, too old and not strong enough for local manufacturing jobs and there are not many opportunities around me for anything else.
I keep a spreadsheet of applications I've turned in and the results of followups. There are just shy of 400 entries currently, most never get a callback or any progress from followups. I've landed 6 interviews in that time, none worked out. It's been close to a year since I added a new entry, I've pretty much given up. I'll call it retirement for a laugh but I'm only 43.
Is there any field of tech in particular that interests you? Programming? Game design? Systems stuff?
Quite a lot of it.
I was a huge gamer for years but quit playing them as a new years resolution (along with watching TV and movies) the same day I lost my job, so I could improve myself and learn more.
I've learned how to install Linux. I haven't used Windows since September 2021.
I got my amateur radio technicians license 2 years ago.
I've programmed "Hello world!" in 14 different programming languages, because that takes about the same amount of time as I can maintain my focus. I've only written a few programs outside the Hello World ones, most of which do not work.
I've built every computer I've owned that I've used regularly (3 total) and feel llike I have a better understanding of them than the majority of people I know (non tech types mostly) and occasionally make money or end up with hand-me-down parts, by helping friends pick out compatible parts and assisting with assembly of their builds.
After I stopped using Windows, I lost alt-keycodes for special characters, so I made a custom keymap/keysym setup that includes characters not normally on keyboards but still are frequently needed. ≈ ± ≠ ∞ √ ∅ Ω © ® ™
I've penciled out and/or made somewhat tech-related things, like costumes and props that use simple robotics (moving hand for Halloween) and LEDS ('magic' wands made of wood that light up from the inside with certain movements).
One project currently in progress (i have 100's in progress) is a little box that has sensors for weather, an RTL-SDR to pick up aircraft and a raspberry pi in a 'hopefully' weatherproof case, with the goal of data collecting from locations near me.
I make a ridiculous amount of directed graphs and diagrams.
I have a memory map like a wikipedia of my own life and knowledge.
So yes, I am interested in a little bit of everything, possibly to a fault.
You might have luck as a systems administrator, IT, or hardware tech, though some are not growing fields.
I learned an instrument (guitar), then I learned another instrument (bass guitar). I caught up with my family, I got to spend a lot more time with my nephews and nieces. I got to spend a lot of time with my dad. I picked back up circuit design and made an overdrive guitar pedal from scratch and learned KiCad in the process. I caught up with old friends but lost touch with other ones. I probably acted like an ass to a lot of people. I finally came to understand why people like watching sports. I learned how to write in cursive. I walked a lot. I listened to a lot of music. I listened to some podcasts.
I dunno, it sucks and its painful. You're constantly worried and people who at first try to support you then get pissed off at you for something you can't really control. I hope you can find your way through it.
Picking up cursive again (I had to learn a little bit in elementary school) has been so rewarding for me. Having something right there, in the real world, ready to be picked up at a moments notice and convey whatever is in my mind onto paper is so soothing. It has been the greatest asset in my "put the d** phone down" battle so far
> I finally came to understand why people like watching sports.
Can you help me understand it too? I don’t get it either.
Watching some of the Netflix docs like the Formula 1 one or the Tour de France one is a good gateway drug into "sports watching". It turns out it's all just for the stories, and a bit for the game.
If you're talking about Drive To Survive, keep in mind it's specifically backstage F1 drama and doesn't really capture the sport itself.
As for me, and most motorsport fans I know, it's very much about the sport and skill involved. Sure, there's other aspects to it (people like their drivers/teams/etc) but I would say it's primarily for the sport, not the stories. I can't really speak to any other sports though.
Sports is drama, it follows rules but the details are unscripted. It's never entirely predictable like most other entertainment can be. At the top levels it's also a demonstration of incredible physical skill (perhaps not appreciated if you haven't tried it, or haven't watched a lot).
There are heroes and villains, many different story lines about betrayal & triumphant comebacks from injury or a losing streak, etc. There is also an entire business side to it, where sports teams don't compete solely on the field, but also in business. They compete for market share to sell more jerseys or for talent to get the best players; That's always been the most fascinating to me personally.
You make it sound great to be honest (I'm sure its not though.) How have you survived without income?
Senior dev, 22 years of experience. Almost exactly two years unemployed right now. I've done some technical leadership before but I'm not looking into it anymore, not really my thing.
In general, I get very few replies, even fewer interviews and 100% eventually "freeze the position" or simply ghost me. I've heard that too many companies are currently spending their HR budgets in market research and have no intention of fulfilling most of the positions they advertise. Not sure if that's true, and maybe there are other reasons for that, market-related and/or related to my resume, but applying to jobs is feeling just a huge waste of my time currently and I'm tending to apply only when I see a great fit.
How I cope: I could save a fair amount of money during the startup frenzy in the course of the pandemics and am living off it right now. But it doesn't generate enough passive income, not even close, so I'll have to find a job eventually. I'm seriously considering another profession. Maybe trying to ingress in the education field with my masters. Despite tech job market being at the rock-bottom, the unemployment rates in Brazil are at a historic low.
Now, despite this gloomy report, if you ask me, I'm feeling optimistic, happy even. I'm really seizing the opportunity to study a lot and spending time with my family, so I feel all this is doing me well overall.
What's your stack?
Nowadays mostly:
- Java, Python - React, Angular - Postgresql - Docker, Kubernetes
Been unemployed since 2018.
It started with a maternity leave. Then after a year, I tried going back to my old job and it was a disaster, so I decided to delay it for a bit longer. Then COVID hit. Then I had another child. Then one day you realize, "has it really been 5 years since I stopped working?"
Coming back at that point felt impossible: I wanted a part time job, my skills were outdated and rusty - I didn't even bother applying anywhere, I wouldn't stand a chance. I started searching for alternatives: small freelance gigs, bounties, personal projects... None were a success.
This year I mustered the courage to start applying to jobs again, only to realize that my most pessimistic fears were totally falling short.
I haven't burned all my rope yet, but It's not looking great.
If you're wondering: the way I'm surviving financially is because my spouse does have a full-time job, so we adapted to live with that.
I lost my job in 2017 and was out for almost 3 years until 2020. Some of that was by choice (we just had a baby and we agreed my wife should get a job first), but after a year and a half and going through a bunch of interviews (where I almost got the job), I ultimately landed at a FAANG.
What I did learn, and what should have been obvious, is that the longer you are out of the market, the more they think you are damaged goods.
On and off for 11 years now.
I've only managed to get sesonal summer jobs, in 2023 I finished my higer vocational studies as a frontend developer.
The jobmarket is a shitshow here in Sweden now tho, few people are getting hired, companies "can't find" anyone to hire bc they want unicorns and you read about bigger layoffs a few times a month.
All the while our politicians are ruining our welfare..
I'm honestly barely coping. I'm so glad I have my partner (who also struggle to get a job) and two cats.
I'm going to the gym twice a week, bake sometimes, cook daily sleep quite a bit as I'm tired all the time. I'm kind of just trying to stay active and stick to routines.
I've recently started seeing a psychiatrist as well
Was laid off in 2001 during the dotcom bust. Was self-unemployed buying and selling used docking stations and power adapters until 2007 when I aced a job interview for a small start up after mostly giving up the job search. Six months at the startup gave me experience in an in-demand tech stack that landed me a job at a large tech company that saw me through to retirement 10 years later. If I had it to do over right now I would be creating something with AI as my own business - probably not very lucrative but good experience that might get you hired someplace.
Quit big tech after a decade in the industry about 30 months ago. At the time it was supposed to be a "break" because I was badly disillusioned with the meaningfulness of what I was doing, and in some ways where the industry had shifted over that time period. But then, we looked over our finances as a no-kids household with a combined 35-years of work in the tech industry (which of course is a very fortunate situation to be in) and decided we can retire.
So that's where I'm at right now. I've spent this time picking up new hobbies (currently 3D modelling, branching out to add some electronics elements right now), programming board game probability aids for fun, learning some university level courses from my partner and teaching her some myself, getting more active (my last month has been the best physical shape I've been in since university).
My personal project list keeps growing, so I have plenty to tackle and "keep me busy". Though I do want to move on from toy personal stuff to more meaty stuff in the near future. Yet, figuring out the exact nature of that is a work in progress currently.
I was unemployed for 6 months after my first job after college stopped abruptly due to bankruptcy & corruption of upper management. Ended up going back to university to get a grad degree on top, then spent 5 months unemployed after that. Ended up joining a small startup some friends were building, wasn't much fun. Left after a year, spend another 8 months unemployed then landed my dream job through dumb luck. In all of those periods, I tried to cope via lots of applications or lost myself in spirals of reduced social contacts and lots of video games. Worked on some personal tech projects, dabbled in robotics, tried to help write a book... I am very happy with and grateful for where I am right now. At the same time, reading the posts here brought back strong emotions & memories. My heart goes out to all of you searching, don't let it get to you! You are all valuable human beings, and life always involves some element of luck. Plus all of recruiting is very dehumanising and degrading, no-one should be ghosted, ignored or lied to on this scale. Things get better eventually and it's ok to feel down and powerless, just remember you are not alone in this!
Im’ve helped a german immigrant find work before he lost is visa for working/studying due to job loss. Applied 400+ times within 6 months. No results. Then, we iterated in 2 session across 2 weeks. He did 60 applications after that and got a few interviews and finally laded a job 3 weeks later.
Listen and follow carefully:
(1) Fill the current gap in your CV with “Job Sabbatical”, make it span up to now. Else people will be put off by the fact you didn’t find work.
(2) Id you want, send me your CV and I’ll audit. 30% of cases people focus on the wrong stuff, 50% they don’t sell it well (presentation, communication, annecdotes) and the other 20% is not sticking to cultural norms / non-CV related stuff
My husband. Financially we’re fine, because he wasn’t in tech anyway and made 1/4 of what I do. Emotionally I’m really starting to resent it (he is not on the “I sent out 1000 resumes” track, he’s made a lot of progress in EVE).
My non-expert advice is to kindly communicate this early, before it becomes a deeper problem that blows up suddenly one day. If money isn't a concern, it at least opens up a wider selection of options for how you two can share duties. Best of luck to you both.
communication, but with compassion, and with offers to help without shame.
shame will have opposite of intended effect
My ex-wife didn’t have a my stable job the last ~6 years of our marriage. She would find a job, say it made her feel miserable, and quit within months.
She would often be “dragging her feet” when it came to applying for jobs.
I’m convinced it’s part of why our marriage failed, it created a lot of tension between us. It’s not the only cause, but it contributed. I’m not sure what I could have done differently, but I empathize with your situation.
You've got every right to resent it if he's not at least maintaining the household and providing a better home life for the two of you in lieu of additional income.
There's no shame in being a homemaker, and heck, I'd do it myself if I had a partner that could provide for the two of us. Cooking, cleaning, laundry, landscaping, repairs, upkeep, finances...I like the appeal, but that's because I like the job of a homemaker. It might be worth broaching that topic with your partner, see if maybe they can begin contributing in that sense. You're less likely to resent someone who has a home-cooked meal for you when you get home most nights of the week, or the laundry being washed, folded, and ironed.
And if they balk at such a notion, well...there's more data for you to act upon in your relationship. Either way, you'll feel like you're moving forward instead of stuck in place.
Just an eRando's two cents. YMMV, take with a grain of salt, etc.
> You've got every right to resent it if he's not at least maintaining the household and providing a better home life for the two of you in lieu of additional income.
The parent comment didn't mention that at all.
> And if they balk at such a notion, well...there's more data for you to act upon in your relationship.
Wild how quickly a comment about someone's husband being out of work but applying for jobs jumps to assumptions that he's a deadbeat and suggestions to "act upon" it.
This. Gender roles run deep, even here. I don’t think comments would appreciate a man complaining his wife only made 1/4 as him.
Not a stretch at all, the OP alluded to it
> a comment about someone's husband [...] applying for jobs
Now we're wondering which comment you read.
On the positive side, sending out 1k resumes is a complete waste of time. Ask me how I know.
whenever i see stories about people sending out that many resumes, i'm confused how they've found so many jobs to apply to. i'm pretty sure it's only possible if you completely ignore the job description and requirements and just apply to everything. in which case... no wonder it doesn't work
MMOs in general, but EVE in particular, make you feel like you're part of something, which can be a huge comfort when you lose a job and some sense of self-esteem. Not to justify his behavior at all - I'd highly recommend getting him away from EVE - but I wanted to point it out.
I hope you guys work it out.
“Working” on quests in video games can feel very rewarding. Quitting EVE might be a good idea but I think should be complemented with something equally rewarding because otherwise they might feel empty and slide back into it. Developing that rewarding feeling might take time though.
Retired - sort of - when the remains of my last two start-ups died (in the same month!) after the pandemic and were sold for OK money. Now doing a part-time PhD working fixing the climate.
Coping - generally fine - helped by building up a new network of friends and doing things like going clubbing and going to music festivals and giving talks and running voluntary orgs. Just been out for beers with my mentee; he will be giving a talk at a session that I am running tomorrow with the local council.
What’s your advice for people who want to transition to working on projects to help fix the climate crisis?
Where would you start?
Curious, what bit are you working on to help fix this? Research as you’re doing a PhD?
Reading “Reinventing Fire” currently. So much needs to change, but it feels like there is zero political will to address this crisis.
You can work on climate fixes quietly within a current role (eg write more efficient code, scheduling non-critical stuff away from demand peaks towards generation peaks, ... #frugalComputing) or maybe move to a role which has some explicit climate goals.
There are so many things to work on, some can be tackled as a start-up, which is HN territory! My last start-up developed a domestic heating control to save energy by setting back temperatures a little when a room is empty and likely to stay empty for a while. There's >500k units installed.
My PhD is finding how to best improve decarbonisaton of UK home heating (~14% of UK GHGs). Mainly by replacing gas boilers with heat pumps. Did my own at the end of last year.
You could look here? https://www.climatetechlist.com/blog/about
Got laid off with the rest of my colleagues in February 2025, been searching for a job for 6 months. I was applying to 2 jobs per day on average, 400 in total; and making test assignments. Interviews were a rare thing until July-August. Or maybe I just reworked CV well enough to this moment.
Meanwhile, I focused on learning trending tools and skills, and was coping by working on DIY projects involving 3D modelling and printing, electronics, programming. Wife was very supportive during that time <3
Around the end of August I got the first offer, and two weeks later another better one.
Market is awful. Much worse than the last time I was looking for a job, 5 years ago.
Keep up!
For anyone here struggling with being unemployed and not finding a job, I’d suggest looking into “never search alone”. It’s a book and program to develop a system for finding your next job along with a community and support system.
It’s free beyond the cost of the book (which you can probably find in your public library) and has helped thousands.
Good luck!
Recently, I found out a couple of friends were looking for jobs and I convinced them into creating a joint notion database for companies, job positions, networking events etc... So far I think it's been positive, it makes the job search less isolating and it certainly helps to see further away in the market
I'm hitting 2 years after a massive layoff at my previous job. I've worked in more or less all the major languages and tech stacks doing fullstack web + cloud infra + desktop apps for startups in various sectors.
First year was an intentional "sabbatical" after never taking longer than a 1 week long vacation in seven years of full time SWE.
Second year... Well, I've applied to probably around 500 jobs this year, from the smallest to the largest companies, and I've gotten ONE video call interview. And as much as I would want to thank that one VP Eng at that one company for even interviewing me, after the interviewer directly told me that I aligned with what they were looking to hire for the role, and that I would be scheduled for technical interviews the next week, I ended up *ghosted*. Not even a rejection email.
Of my IRL SWE friends, I know many like myself who have been laid off and can't find new work (it seems like the longer the gap gets, the more it self-reinforcingly leads employers to think you're damaged goods); I know others who have been laid off and found new work within a month or two; and I know a few who are continuing to climb the comp ladder at big saas corps, seemingly completely unaffected by the job market.
The strangest thing to me about this wave of SWE unemployment is that it seems to be totally violative of supply and demand. Yes, I know that all SWE workers aren't equal fungible goods, but I would have thought that there are tiers or specializations inside of which there can be some rough supply and demand. Yet, I haven't gotten any lowball job offers - just complete lack of interest.
For past context, I didn't even have to apply for my last 2 jobs - a technical leader at each company (CTO, Dir Eng, etc) reached out to me unsolicited after finding my resume on a job board.
3 years. Left work because I felt comfortable with finances and family life, but wanted to try something different. It’s been fun working on personal projects and sharpening old tools. Still figuring out what I want to do long term. Some ideas include becoming a CFP because I like helping people with their finances, working for a tech company in that domain, or expanding the personal project (jch.app) and building more community.
In a good headspace now, right after the first year was feeling lost on where to go next.
> In a good headspace now, right after the first year was feeling lost on where to go next.
Glad to hear. I had a similar experience, people act like "being in transition" where you are unsure what is next is solveable in a month, maybe three months. After that first year I still felt so unsure what I was supposed to do.
I'm in that phase somewhat right now. 30 months in, I'm still kinda unsure what I'd like to do. I know going back to a big enterprise software firm is bit of a last resort at this point, I just cannot convince myself that work is meaningful. Thankfully I'm financially secure (for now, who knows how the global trade shenanigans will actually affect my retirement funds), so there's no urgency to jump headfirst into another job. Yet, despite having plenty to do in terms of side projects, it would be a lie to say I don't feel that I need to do something more meaningful with my time.
Yes. Last full time software development job was in 2017, under the most abusive manager I've ever had in my 20+ years in tech. Took a full year out just for psychotherapy. Unfortunately, the subsequent years had me branded with that "employment gap" stigma that recruiters and hiring managers can't see past.
I'm now doing temp office work for my local government. I actually prefer the job setting, aside from the low pay. I would encourage everyone to try getting work in their own local governments, especially around big events like elections, when there's need for a lot of people at once.
Thanks for the tip.
When you say abusive manager, do you mean micromanaging and the likes?
If not, is this something HR could have helped with. But then again the saying goes HR is not your friend?
What would be your advice how to deal with abusive managers? Especially not letting it get to a point where you need therapy.
The "employment gap" stigma is so frustrating. I want to find every recruiter that thinks it is okay to stigmatize this, and smack them.
My girlfriend is currently suffering a lot because of this because she had to go on extended bereavement and now no one will hire her.
Can you put ‘freelance’ or volunteer work in that gap? And have friends or family as reference?
Couple years back I walked away from a company that IPO’ed, cashed out enough to not worry about rent or food for the next 20–30 years. I swore off jobs, told myself I’d build something of my own. But I haven’t built anything. Haven’t even tried applying anywhere, too stubborn for that. Most days I just circle around ideas, start, stop, drop. Repeat. Money isn’t the problem—it’s this gnawing restlessness, this sense that I’m wasting what could have been momentum. I don’t know what I’m building, and that not-knowing is eating me more than anything else.
Most people underappreciate how tough it is to get yourself motivated & creating anything when the structure of a job falls away. Its fine to go take a job, just for the structure/mental stimulation it provides.
If you do take a job, I wouldn't be surprised if you eventually find a passion project that'll make everything fall into place. Its ok that it takes time to discover that passion.
(I took 2 years off for an entrepreneurial project. Finished it in the first year, bummed around purposeless for the next one. Went back to work early. 15 years later, beginning to get curious/driven again.)
It’s not like I haven’t considered getting a job — I’ve gone through this exact cycle so many times I’ve lost count. The job hunt feels dismaying, so I default to chasing ideas. It feels right for a while… until I’m back at the same question: is a job what I needed all along? My better self honestly craves structure, waking up with a clear, singular goal.
Yep. I'm an Electrical Engineer, 10+ years of experience in systems (automation, robotics, etc.). I left my job back in 2023, which I regret now, but I didn't leave because it wasn't paying well (it was low wage), or anything, but because of the management and daily harassment. However, I should have let them terminate me instead to collect unemployment.
The first few months I spent trying to make my own work, since my tech background is great, but really, that led to nowhere, especially in this economy (Canada), so I started looking for a job. Now 1.5 years of active searching and only 4 interviews, yes, only 4 where the job description was as if it was written to match my resume, yet I got rejected, just to see how bad it is, compared to before until 2021. I used to get contacted for jobs, some were in big companies like Amazon for 180k. All other applications just go to the void, or cliché "we went with another candidate" but the posting remains open 3 months later. Sometimes I would receive the rejection two hours after applying after midnight, so it's just automated.
It's been tough, mentally demoralizing and I borderline went suicidal at some point. Even now, if some burglar came to shoot me in the face I wouldn't even flinch, completely hopeless, not because of not finding a job, but because of 15+ years of education and experience and you are just invisible, no matter how you perfect the resume or whatever. Meanwhile I see fresh co-op students are hired in good companies and good positions, mostly girls too, making me believe that HR (mostly women) and managers (mostly men) prefer hiring fresh especially women for all sorts of reasons, and also company-wise too because they can pay them peanuts without an issue. I deeply regret becoming an engineer, waste of time and money. If I had invested that in other education or even becoming a plumber I would be in a better position now.
The plan right now is to find anything, work and save a little then completely change my career, no more engineering or tech stuff despite my passion in this field, but if it doesn't pay bills, it's becoming like an art degree now, especially when the industry doesn't have any measure to protect the profession. Anyone can be an engineer, meanwhile I see a nurse (which seen as the janitor of healthcare jobs) is paid ~90k on par with a senior engineer, if you found the job anyway. You know something is not right, hell, even a landscaper makes better than that. Leaving Canada isn't an option right now due to some reasons.
a nurse is not the janitor of healthcare jobs.
Your first hand experience with how brutal the job market is is real. And it definitely feels like zero sum when it comes down to "a woman gets hired for reasons over me" but i must call out how dangerous this line of thinking becomes.
Also obviously not anyone can become an engineer. please don't be so dismissive of others.
if you're willing to put in the learning to become a plumber that seems like a positive path forward.
>nurse is not the janitor of healthcare jobs.
I don't know but among healthcare practitioner apparently it's seen like that. It's brutal, but out of all white collar jobs, only engineering is suffering, and especially males, yes, women are hired for 'reasons' over males, you can check any unemployment rate between males/females, now it's called he-cession https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2025-08-05/us-job... What is the ratio of females posting not finding jobs in social media compared to males? I personally never seen a single female complaining not finding a job, instead, they are dancing in the jobs for tiktok and posting how their 'lazy girl job' is going, meanwhile for guys, it's all over the place, especially in tech/engineering.
Engineering isn't guarded as a profession, there's no designation like other white collar jobs that you need to pass and have to be called an engineer, the 'engineer' term is so diluted that it's meaningless now, and even to be a plumper, you should have apprenticeship to practice it, it's even more guarded than engineer. Total waste of time to be an engineer, my advise to anyone who's getting in the field or thinking about it, do NOT, you are better dancing on tiktok than wasting your life in a useless degree.
My friend, don’t swallow the red pill and definitely avoid the black pill.
Janitors and cleaners of all kinds are essential workers. And nurses keep you alive. Both type of workers add more value to society than I do (working on products to make numbers go up).
Your evidence is all anecdotal. Go om LinkedIn and you see plenty of posts by women who are also struggling.
If you want to be mad at someone then be mad at the Epstein class not at your fellow class mates.
To be blunt, if you're expressing those views on a public forum it's not a surprise you're still unemployed.
You're the exact kind of toxic employee that companies avoid hiring.
If you ever want to have a good job again you need to change your attitude.
I recommend electrician, rather than plumber, as it is adjacent to your existing skills.
You don’t seem to understand what a nursing job entails.
In 2019 I left my cushy job because I wanted $$$ but couldn't push myself to leetcode.
I spent much of that year on personal projects and family before I could seriously commit myself. Then covid happened.
It took 2.5yr before I worked again, in FAANG. There were many moments of feeling down and alone.
I'm unemployed again, 3 months now, this time after being laid off. I wish I could just concentrate my efforts on developing products and monetizing them. But since I have a family to support, I decided to spend time on these projects only to reward myself for grinding leetcode & system design.
How much time do you spend talking to people about hiring you?
The leetcode and system design can FEEL productive but it’s 2 steps removed from what you want and what’s probably uncomfortable.
I haven't been quite unemployed, but I have been doing fractional and other gig based work for nearly 2.
Sometimes it feels like the sum of all the little projects I've been working on amounts to nothing, and I wouldn't even know how to go through a full-time job interview process again. Freaks me out.
Yes, I'm exactly that situation. Mid-40s. My background is in finance - investment banking. I spent 16 years at the same firm, before being actively recruited over to an industry-leading bank but in an adjacent sector (UHNW lending). Less than a year into that, I was laid off as part of a large reduction in force. "Sorry, last in first out, here's two weeks". Thankfully the RIF was large enough that it triggered a WARN Notice, so I got an additional 3 months out of it.
I've gone through my network multiple times, asked for referrals, have applied to 2,000+ job openings that I've seen on LinkedIn, have tried networking meetings, you name it. I'm in NYC and not geographically mobile (raising 2 kids, divorced), but I've applied to jobs in FL, Chicago, etc where I would try to make it work being in an office part time around my schedule. I've applied to totally different sectors.
The recruiting merry-go-around is brutal. ATS to enter resume data, automatic rejection emails (sometimes within under 24h!). The "what have you done the last two years" question kills me -- I've looked for a job, that's what I've done.
I spent fifteen months unemployed during the Great Recession, in a state that was hostile to LGBTQ people, with no local support network beyond a family that I wasn’t out to. I ended up draining all my savings just to survive before finally taking up a friend on their offer of assistance.
How I coped?
* I helped run a gaming community. I threw myself into the work full time, building up a great gaming server with strong player count. This gave me social connection in an area I couldn’t openly be myself in.
* I minimized expenses, including buying delivery meals (lack of an inspected car) and making one delivery stretch two to three days' worth of meals (~$1.50 a meal back then)
The one regret is I didn’t take my friend up on their help sooner. It meant relocating to a new city, but within two weeks of putting their address on my resume I had found new work. Not stellar work, but good enough to close out my old place, pack up stuff to storage, and move out to the new city.
Definitely take up friends on their offers of help. For resumes especially, borrowing a friend’s address can give you a “local” presence and make you a better candidate. Don’t feel bad taking a career step downward if it saves your ass in the immediate - there will always be opportunities to move up again later.
You’re not alone in this. It sucks, supremely sucks ass, but you’re not a failure just because the market is in a downswing. Don’t beat yourself up over things out of your control.
There is a light at the end of this tunnel. You’ll make it.
Got laid off 2 weeks ago (8YOE). How are there so many engineers out of work for >2 years? Should I conclude that my time is better spent searching for a non-eng job?
YMMV. See what 2-3 months of job searching does for you, then investigate rewarding alternatives so you have the beginning of a plan B. If your main area of expertise is Go or TS, fullstack, React, AI, don't wait 2-3 months as the supply/demand is greatly titled.
This is my 12th month. I quit due to the birth of my son, and honestly he has kept me plenty busy for now. The hardest part for me is the lack of friends who are in the same situation.
With daycare and school,you should end up making some in the same situation. At least that worked for me.
I hope you find some friends
I've been unemployed for over two years.
I'm coping by executing a plan that leads to retirement.
For those who've been unemployed for over a year, how do you manage financially?
Welfare benefits and saved money
lived extremely frugally my entire life and continued to do so while unemployed, combined with being very fortunate with high rates of return in my 401k for the past 15 years
Is it possible to draw on a 401k without tax penalties if it's due to unemployment? Otherwise I thought you had to be of retirement age?
You just pay the tax. 10% early withdrawal penalty plus about 10% federal income tax up to about $50k. Obviously it would be nice to not have to pay that tax at all by waiting until retirement age, but depending on your cost basis and your other income, it's less than you would have paid in income tax at the time of deposit plus short term cap gains at the time of withdrawal if you had not put it in the 401k in the first place. If your previous wage was high enough and cost basis low enough, then it might even be less than income tax at time of deposit plus long term cap gains at time of withdrawal.
i could withdraw my contributions without penalty but yes i'm into the 10% penalty territory at this point since im drawing on the returns
Thanks for this thread. So many people blame the less successful for their lack of success and pretend it’s not half the bell curve but some tiny minority.
I left my job in 2021 to start a business. I just launched it, but I still don’t have a steady income. I’m living with my wife, and still have enough to get by for a couple more years, but I’m really hoping my business can start making money.
I still have my good job but in case I lose it I am going to lie and lie and lie to get any job just going to flip burgers or whatever and send them CV cut out without degree and without accomplishments.
But still will continue on sending out proper CV.
Worst I have gone is 18 months, and that was my incredibly expensive "I am going to try indie development with people from Uni" phase.
Isolation and poverty of unemployment was only exacerbated by dealing with dumb team dynamics.
I'm 2 months in, and this thread scares and comforts me...
Keep in mind this thread is self selecting for people who have been out of work for a long time.
I was laid off at a small tech company mid July and found another job with a friend at another small company in mid September. I thought maybe I wouldn’t find another job for a while, but it took me about 2 months with a very significant (40%) pay cut. I like the company pretty well, but I’m still hoping for something more. We’ll see.
took me 10 months and I'm a run of the mill guy. Just make sure to apply a lot, I think too many people look for well fitting jobs but my idea is the first one that gives any offer is usually good enough
Having watched colleagues land jobs where they had almost no experience in (what were apparently) key areas of the job description. I would advise to apply to anything that looks interesting to you, and fluff your CV. The job descriptions are fluffed to death so no harm.
Last year, I decided to leave the small agency where I had worked for almost 6 years because, being a family-owned business, it was terrible for everybody (except for the bootlickers). The first few months were decent, having time to do almost anything, but then I started to feel miserable seeing how my bank account was getting close to empty and not receiving any calls from my job applications. Job searching has to be one of the worst experiences I have ever had, but my blog (alprado.com) was an incredibly therapeutic tool.
Left my job in 2022, thought I was going to just take a short break. Been applying to jobs but I really struggle to find something that motivates me enough to pass the interviews. Probably have gone through 20 processes. Got one offer, but also managed to get a grant to work on my side project for the last year, so I did that instead. We see what next year will look like, but I am not too optimistic honestly.
I find this mentality very strange but maybe it’s because I don’t have as much saved as I’d like to have. If I were out of work I’d find significant motivation to do whatever I could to pass an interview and at least make some money while looking for something better.
I don't know. It's all a mix of factors, but it's basically "been there, done that". The last times I was really excited about the jobs, nowadays I have this doom feeling it will be the same experience over again. Maybe burnout, maybe being too privileged to fail and still somehow make ends.
That said, I forced being motivated, and I did whatever took, and still failed interviews. So, now I know it's not on my hands to pass or not.
This means that this person isn't desperate enough to make money. Otherwise, they would have taken any job.
But I also understand them, if they don't like the offering and also have enough money or don't have to have a job to reside in their country then why not.
Left my job on the East Coast in 2023 when my F1-OPT expired. Returned to my home country to recuperate, focus on my mental and physical health, shrug off the perpetual anxiety, etc. Married my now wife who was still building her career in the US, moved back here, and I'm waiting on my work authorisation. Can't say I'm too chuffed about being here right now, but c'est la vie.
how long have you been waiting on your work authorization ?
Longer than two years, for pre-COVID reasons mostly. Not coping too well..
It sure would be nice if one of those bitcoin millionaires came out of nowhere willing to sponsor me. I'd love to focus on open source, without worrying about making rent or eating this month.
Shameless self-promotion, sorry..
https://brynet.ca/wallofpizza.html
Been unemployed a little over one year. Backend engineer/SRE with 20+ years of experience somewhere in Western Europe.
I didn't scatter shot submit my CV to everything under the sun - tried to keep it in my current area of residence, with the technology stack that I actually want to pursue.
I applied for around 4-5 jobs a month (which included tuning CV and cover letters for each of them). I got around 10 interviews during all this time, so far being rejected across the board, mostly with pretty risible reasons. This number includes both rejections after first screening call, or after technical interviews. (As an example, one company - to which I reached from one of the HN jobs threads - rejected me for doing a manual Pythagoras calculation for computing some coordinates instead of using a library.)
In the past month or so I've finally started getting more invitations back instead of being ghosted or getting generic "we're moving on with more suitable candidates", so things are looking more promising.
Overall I'm not worried, I have a good support network, and I keep preoccupied with open source stuff.
The only problem is that the latest rejections kinda dented my self esteem a little, but I hope that's temporary. :)
Thirteen years. Maybe not what you were expecting to hear.
It's hard to remember beyond vignettes, but around when I left my last regular job it felt like my world was collapsing. I'd drifted out of a relationship, I was struggling with mental health just as my physical health was improving, my social and political environment started feeling uncomfortable, the small startup I worked for was struggling to pay me (at all, let alone on time), and Mom's illness was becoming terminal (eventually I lost Dad too) and I moved back home to help look after her.
Even before that my employment record had been kinda spotty but I was blessed to have a supportive family and very frugal habits that let me start building up some savings. But I also definitely counted some unhatched chickens. At first, putting the world of employment completely out of my mind was part of how I coped with the stress. Then I started deluding myself that I was "semi-retired". By the time reality fully hit me, the self-doubt from the existing gap in my resume was self-reinforcing. And my "professional network" feels like a joke now.
I'm trying to shake myself out of it, force myself to build a portfolio and go looking again. It's brutal, though. Hard to even find the words for this post, and read them back and wonder what I'm doing with/to myself. And the world is different, too. Even without thinking about AI. I have deep expertise in some tech stuff but no obvious way to show it off (of course I want to write good code rather than clever code). I don't want to do all this new "web 2.0" (is it 3.0 now?) stuff. It looks and feels awful to me, on every level. I just want to make simple, practical, really well designed tools (it was strangely hard to phrase that).
Are you unemployed or just not trying? After 13 years, I think its the latter.
Who let you not work for thirteen years? That's abuse
> It's brutal, though. Hard to even find the words for this post, and read them back and wonder what I'm doing with/to myself. And the world is different, too.
I feel this. I don't know if I can/will post. I wish you the best of luck.
Yes, laid off in 2023 and haven't found a tech job since. Due to significant life and family health circumstances, anything that isn't a career job is hard to justify while caring for myself and others.
I've spent the last two years volunteering a local bike co-op and getting way to into bike building and cycling generally. Additionally, I spend a lot of time doing what I can to help my local trans community (that I am a part of). This work has gifted me with perspectives I would never have seen otherwise, and has really helped my organizational and soft skills.
Tech wise, I only do hobby projects now, and it's really wonderful in some ways. Having the professional experience I do, but the free time to work on projects that I want has helped me learn so much and really push my understanding of all sorts of technology.
When the job market eventually gets better, I will be able to approach it with a confidence that I didn't feel was earned before. That's really my cope lol
---
Fwiw
https://elanora.lol/resume resume@elanora.lol
This could've been written by me. I hope you're doing well.
Why do you think anyone would want to hire you when things get better vs people that are „more in the game“, like experienced people without a career gap?
Not asking to be mean, asking because I am afraid of that happening to me and looking for perspective.
Gaps are not worth worrying about unless you have < 5 years exp. At least no one has ever mentioned it. My career is long so experience is just a summary anyway. Use years only and learn how to freelance (or look like it) during lean times.
I would honestly suggest a more professional tld and a better looking website if you want to land a job...
I guess it depends on who reads it but I don't see any issue with it. FWIW - I'm not a recruiter it manager but I've been an interviewer at various tech companies.
My impression from the resume is that she's relatively junior with limited experience, but not zero, and her experience is in unsexy tech stacks, and she did a bootcamp. So she is fighting am uphill battle in a tough market. But I don't get the impression that she's unprofessional or immature because of the whimsical website.
I'm any case, I wish her luck, and I believe that there are roles out there that would be a good fit for her and she can gain more experience. She just needs that first break... Which is hard to get
Did you read her website on your phone or your computer? It looks mostly fine on the phone (the CV page at least) but it is really bad on any larger screen.
On my phone. So maybe I didn't see what you saw, in which case I'll reserve judgement.
Here's a screenshot of the homepage on a 1440p monitor: https://www.awesomescreenshot.com/image/56548780?key=fa46166...
looks fine to me
The longest was 20 months last year. In this market with GenAI and an uncertain U.S. administration, it’s not likely to improve for years.
I would recommend everyone hunker down and do what you need to survive, including selling things and moving to lower cost locations and combining assets with family where possible.
Good advice.
Stay lean and prepare for tough(er) times.
Throwaway, to do away with the polite fiction that I usually present.
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your hometown / Waiting for someone or something to show you the way
At 11 I started writing software, with entrepreneurial aspirations helped by my parents. Over my teen years I must have designed a dozen sites I never published. I did alright in school, but I was never on time. At 18, out of high school, I got my first job. I moved to the city, went to college, and flunked out. I couldn't get up for class on time, I couldn't understand the "basic high school review" math course.
So, at 19 I moved back home, worked a year, and moved back to the city to work as a developer. I applied here and there, there was never much interest. I got comfortable, and although ashamed to sickness, I managed to spend the pandemic years not working at all. I suppose my ego and immaturity "prevented" me from working a regular job.
At 23 I moved back to my home town, to work my 3rd job ever, as a cleaner alongside a bunch of teens. After a year of that, I moved to a new big city, swallowed my pride and immediately got another cleaning job. I hoped to move on from that, maybe to software, maybe some new calling.
A new life circumstance hit me like a truck, and I had a very dark year. Stayed at that minimum wage job. 24, 25, moved back home.
The last year I've been trying to improve, taking online courses, going to the gym, building a piece of software that has real value, as in, can actually make money. But, well, I have a hard time believing anything has much of value. I'm 26 now. Spent most of my year "improving", a small portion working.
I maintain the polite fiction because I don't like people asking me why I do the things I do, I don't really know. I guess I do what's easy. A younger me would've chalked it up to "trauma", "anxiety", "depression", or some DSM-able disorder. An older me doesn't believe that at all. But I barely work, don't drive, and I really isolate myself. This was all quite bad before, but after the "circumstance", the last point is especially true.
I know how to get out of the "not working" cycle, I have to get a job first-and-foremost. But I don't know how to get out of the isolation cycle, it's been getting worse and worse. I try and read up on it, but all the advice is about "making friends". That's not really my issue. I feel like an alien, and most everyone drives me insane. Well, at least I can appreciate Kafka.
(After all that, I've never made a dime on software)
To get out of the isolation cycle you have to stop isolating yourself.
Go for a walk and talk to a stranger. I talked to a random dude for 45 mins the other day and he showed me all the fish he’s caught. Epic.
Sounds like you like software. Go to a software meet up and geek out.
The friends will come but even a 5 min conversation can have a huge impact on your psyche so just get out there in a way that you feel comfortable with.
The issue is deeper, I think. When I go to software meetups, I feel bitter. I used to have friends in technology, but most of them I cut off without a word, and those that reach out I resent. When I'm outside of my hometown, I feel like I can't relate to anyone, and when I'm back... it's hard to describe. I'd rather disappear than have anyone see or think about me. It's hard to even go get groceries now. I used to have "my people", but now I don't have anyone (except a few family members, -ish) that fits that. The common denominator, of course, is me.
I have times of regularity, where I'm charismatic and talking with people. But even then I find that all my stories end with "... that person drives me crazy!" ... Well of course they do, seems like everyone does.
The faults I judge the most in people are the ones I struggle with, or ones I've seen other loved ones struggle with where I wasn't able to help. I want to be kind, to be empathetic really, but I feel so afraid, so incapable of helping, guiding, or even listening empathetically in any way that my reactions are ...bad. Unkind, or alien.
I've been trying. But it's been getting worse.
You ever go backpacking? Maybe some time alone in nature will refresh you and help you reframe the human connection.
Backpacking was nice. As for nature, my town is in the thick of it, so I'm alone in nature quite a lot. That's one reason I return, I really miss it in the city.
I've been in fact outside of my home for some weeks, visiting a sibling in a different country and helping with the new baby and other household stuff. It's been a bit stressful (hard to have structure when you're sleeping on the couch and there's a newborn), but mostly quite nice to be part of a whole. I help out with the baby, cook, socialize, and work on my software when I have time. I wish I could've had more structure, but the "limited time" aspect is a great motivator.
Now I'm heading back home, and that worries me. It feels like I've been outside in the fresh air --to a degree-- and now I'm opening the windowless, stuffy shed and walking back inside for the winter. I do have to go back, even if I'm to leave I need to make some money to launch myself out. But it's like a tar pit of the mind.
It seems like the problem is the home and your parents.
Think about it logically, if you had a kid would you let them end up like you?
You need like some complete psychological and lifestyle reset. Consider joining the military, volunteering in Africa, working on an oilrig, anything as long as it's extreme. Like, whatever most firmly cuts off your whole thread of lived experience and mindset so far but which has structure you can hang on to.
Also find an aggressive therapist who'll get in there and work out what's going on and clean it up, and pay them whatever they ask.
> Kicking around on a piece of ground in your hometown / Waiting for someone or something to show you the way
If it makes you feel any better, this song about the fleeting nature of time is fifty years old and Roger Waters is still touring.
i also thought i wasnt disabled/traumatized for a long time until i came across reading material of symptoms that perfectly described me, and life experiences that perfectly match my own.
trauma and disability can look like a lot of things, and the things in your life that you may think aren't a big deal actually can be, and you have no idea because you've never had it any other way.
realizing i have intense trauma and C-PTSD and a real disability made me shame myself so significantly less, and while it doesnt make me act like a victim or that im helpless, it gives me a butt load of compassion for myself. because the real basic things that people find easy, i find difficult, and to get the same results requires 3x more effort for me. people can view this as me being lazy when in reality im working much harder than they are.
not trying to diagnose you. maybe just keep an open mind, because the way your life is operating is not typical, and there's probably reasons for that.
all of
> designed a dozen sites I never published > I was never on time > I couldn't get up for class on time
And depending on why
> don't drive > I feel like an alien, and most everyone drives me insane. > most of them I cut off without a word, and those that reach out I resent
also sounds like how someone with ADHD could describe themselves, and the other issues could be downstream from that
Yes, but intentionally.
I am not stopping until I am a successful entrepreneur. I refuse to go back to a full-time software job. I have had to do some long stints freelancing or agency work to make ends meet. Gotta do what you gotta do.
But I'm not going back or stopping until I make it.
Same here! We should have an e-coffee or something. I'm currently building my second indie project. I would love to compare notes
I relate but I'm more on the sales/gtm side of things if y'all want a third as company!
Sure! I'll send you an email.
It's a bit vindicating seeing the volume of responses to this. It's possible this is a biased sample and not representative of the majority, but it's nice to know I'm not alone and at least 1 other has experienced exactly what I have.
I was always made to feel fundamentally broken, and I wondered if I was really that terrible. I had no clue why I was treated with such malice and made to feel so unwanted.
Adding my story to the hat - graduated in 2022, naively thinking the world was eager for new contributors, and having finished my degree, I could start working on interesting real-world problems right away. Instead, I got nowhere and spiraled into the most severe self-doubt, worthlessness, and depression in my 20-something years of life.
I had the opportunity to learn and contribute through volunteering, joining my first organization in 2023. Used to be a full-time thing, even what one may consider overtime. Now, I'm kinda spread thin with projects, and also done everything important to where the projects are in maintenance mode.
But finally having that proof - that I could learn, contribute, and do well. I think it was life-changing. Yet judgement and imposter syndrome still hits like - "well, you didn't get paid, so it doesn't mean anything. That's not real work experience." Heard that's basically what someone said about my CV.
Did a smaller project across 3 months, then joined a third org in 2024. Obviously, not pulling 40+ volunteer hours a week anymore, but I still do what I can. Big progress through small changes, doing more in less time, and all that.
I got to work on these projects, learn a few lessons, and I can now bring my ideas to life using what I know. It's relieving to have some control over my endeavors finally. I don't really need a tech job anymore, because I've gained the insight I once thought I could only get from having one.
Technically, I'm employed, but it's on the retail floor. Though I was unemployed for 27 months beforehand, over 3 years without starting what I once thought would be my career. And I'm about to be on the search again.
I think more physical jobs are catching my interest. I'm just focused on seeking novel experiences and further knowledge to broaden my horizons.
It's easy see from your articulation, your conveying thoughts across a long arc you are the real deal. Just from reading your writing I'd put you high on my list.
Keep your head up! What you’re up against isn’t a reflection of your worth but the state of things right now. That doesn't make the situation any better but it does mean it’s not a judgment against you and hopefully knowing that makes it easier to keep your head up high!
Thank you! Admittedly, I often worry my writing comes off as self-centered, rambling, or pedantic... but eh. Perhaps it's better to try than not. I'm sure time will resolve all, in one way or another...
I have been unemployed for more than 5 years. Don't feel like working anymore!
They only seem to call it 'aspirational peerage' when you're young, but when you're established, you still need to find and figure out what others ahead of you are doing so you have an idea about what you might be doing when you get there.
Any tips or advice on staying balanced?
That's the spirit! Same
Start a blog and have chatGPT write something ambitious before each rejection.
I just do some preparation walk into the building and announce i want to work there. You dont even have to pay me. Ik im still heren by the end of the month we talk. Stop thinking about it, we have work to do!
This is not a great formula but it is a great filter for the kind of company I want to work for. If it cant detect a good deal im out.
Do you do this often?
been jobless since nov 2022, been taking gig jobs after obtaining SO/PI licences. dont believe there are jobs for people of my age in the market, no matter the education qualifications or experience
Yes. I gave up and consider myself a homemaker.
I haven't worked since 2019. However, it was something I did willingly. I haven't wanted to work for anyone since and haven't tried to.
I think I'd rather die. Go get a shitty job, temp job, remind yourself what life is actually like for everyone else.
I can't help but feel like a lot of commenters would benefit from such things.
Working in an Amazon warehouse for example, being a labourer of some kind (removalist for example). It really is a luxury to sit in front of a keyboard and monitor and think and solve problems and get paid for it.
I've been in my current job for 6 years but I'm on leave at the moment and look to take a few months off next year caring for our newborn.
Yep. Quit my job a little over two years ago being massively burnt out. It started as an intentional sabbatical but ive been casually applying to jobs for the past two years, maybe like a handful a month on average, and now two+ years out i've gone through 3/4ths of my savings (including retirement savings) and applying to jobs daily and really struggling to find anything I feel capable of doing. Both bc my resume is a bit of a red flag, but also the industry isn't great, and i'm not a super competitive candidate to begin with. Trying to find something that's literally just, like, $80k a year. Which is $40k less than my last job. i was a (mediocre) web developer for 15+ years and it seems like my skillset is basically zero at this point, bc anyone can find mediocre devs at a fraction of the price globally.
Moved to bay area a few weeks despite the cost, both bc i want to be here, but also hoping that maybe some in-person networking pays off and i can find something. i'd honestly be happy being an office manager, i don't need a high paying dev job. but even stuff like office manager requires 5+ years experience doing that.
It was 16 months for me in engineering management but then I wasn’t really looking for the first 6 months so probably closer to 10 months. Been employed for over a year now with a drastic pay increase.
Best time of my life honestly, after 15 years of working. I realized I get 0 pleasure from working and have plenty of things to occupy me if I wasn’t. I learned I don’t need a purpose in life. What I really love is running, woodworking, reading, eating, lifting weights, traveling and spending time with my family.
Supply and Demand:
(1) Big issue, barriers to entry: In the US, for plumbers, electricians, lawn maintainers, ..., they get little competition, i.e., no supply from more than, say, 100 miles away and, thus, none from Asia or Europe.
E.g., a guy down the street was injured so needed someone to mow his grass. My older brother had the job, was too busy with college, so I got the job. They kept asking me to accept a higher fee, but I was afraid I didn't deserve it and didn't want to disappoint my customer. The guy had a next door neighbor who called me to weed their garden. Another guy had an overgrown hedge and called me to cut it back. Another customer had a hedge about 3' high and for neighborhood status wanted it cut to a perfect box and asked me .... Didn't realize that customers were calling ME -- in business, a dream situation, but at 16 didn't appreciate that.
Instead, could have gotten some books on Horticulture 101. With a little marketing, e.g., business cards, a sign could display when working on a yard, a professional look, have the neighbors compete for the best looking yards and proud to be paying my high fees for status, .... Work by "Appointment Only", and maybe by the season only. In a few weeks could have made money enough for a year of college tuition, but college, already had a better career than college offered.
(2) In the US, during the Cold War and the beginning of computing, at least around DC, employers were desperate for anyone with talent, interest, and any experience at all in computing, demand was much greater than supply, and for a job just look in The Washington Post, ..., and have a job in a week.
(3) Still in the US, by the 1990s, some big companies would fire half their computing experts, then could send 1000 resumes and go for years without a job -- could wish could swap AI expertise, background in teaching computer science in college, relevant Bachelor's, Master's and Ph.D. degrees for a slot as an apprentice plumber -- literally, no exaggeration.
Evidence: For a career, a Ph.D., publications in AI, etc. can be worse than a felony conviction. Literally.
If 1000 resumes and more than a year looking for a job, then conclude no fish in that lake and need to look elsewhere.
But college is MUCH better than grass mowing? In the US, not necessarily!
Lesson: Start a business, maybe even one exploiting some aspects of computing and even with some barriers to entry or plumbing, grass mowing, ....
No joke, folks.
I did once - but it was on purpose.
After 4 years at AWS, and ~20 in the industry, I was utterly burnt out, and needed a break. So I took two years off.
I think I'm burned out, but I'm not sure. Sometimes I think getting laid off might be good for me, but being in my mid-forties worries me when Tech is so ageist.
Unfortunately if you're asking this of yourself you are almost certainly burned out. Speaking as someone currently thinking the same thing -- all the times in my career where I was powering through this sort of thing never crossed my mind, it's only come up more recently as the hours have begun to climb.
Being middle age is a risk for sure, but also keep in mind you have only one or two big changes left before you're done. It matters more to get into a spot that can take you where you need to go.
Good luck with it.
Was it worth it
I have, but it's retirement. I have no desire to rejoin the rodential rally.
Been about eight years, and, after I got over the butthurt of not being hired, I leaned into retirement (I am grateful to have the means).
Best thing that ever happened to me.
Hmm, I don't know Chris, I've read your comments here over the years and I get the feeling that any company that hired you would be in a good place with you on their team.
There's a lot of bad hiring teams, though. So, I totally get it. Retirement is also nice if you can afford it.
Thanks! I always thought so, too, but I appear to have had a minority position.
It’s all turned out OK, in the aggregate, though.
I still do plenty of ship-level coding (but for much smaller scopes). I really like it.
I'm only about 4 weeks into unemployment, but I'm helping a friend who's a year in. Were both very junior and that Canada job market's a bit brutal right now.
On the plus side, were trying to be very scientific about our approach, and have been hosting sessions every morning where we apply for 2-3 jobs documenting the entire process and sharing encouragement and hoping to avoid burnout.
I've been thinking of opening this job hunting session to more people so we can start collecting some really good data on exactly how hard it is to get a job, and maybe help get a better understanding of what strategies are most effective when looking for a job. If you're interested I'm collecting some feedback here: https://forms.office.com/r/kKk7e6Wvre
Good luck out there.
Wonder if this is a coincidence that the other major discussion item on the front page is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45305845 (Trump to impose $100k fee for H-1B worker visas, White House says) with the large majority seemingly disagreeing with the policy and sort encouraging ramping up H-1Bs and such since it's generally great for the country. But then I see a lot of young grads and unemployed laid off folks and am trying to figure out if and how the two issues are related.
Are people who look for jobs asking for too much money? They are not qualified enough and US just has no other way but to go for H-1B workers? It's hard to believe that.
Are companies playing various shenanigans with legal loopholes? I heard recently there was a database someone created of "hidden" jobs these companies post, where nobody would be likely to see them so they can turn around to Uncle Sam and say "oh well, looks like nobody wants to work here, we'll just have to go for H-1Bs".
The thing is pitching your salary lower doesn’t always make you more attractive as a candidate. If you’re going in lower than market rate then many recruiters start wondering about your past performance, confidence, etc.
As a hiring manager in a big company, salary isn’t really much of a consideration for me. The company has salary bands per role that I have very little control over. If a candidate is above that band and unwilling to come down, then I probably won’t even hear from our recruiters that that person applied. So in our process, somebody wouldn’t accidentally price themselves out of an opportunity.
So it’s possible that job seekers are making themselves uncompetitive via high salary demands, but I have my doubts whether its a major factor.
I’d like to jump onto this real quick because of your last bit:
> So it’s possible that job seekers are making themselves uncompetitive via high salary demands, but I have my doubts whether its a major factor.
Generally, you’re hitting the nail on the head in the immediate. The only reason I landed on my feet after this Big Tech layoff cycle is because I ate a $25k/yr pay cut so I wouldn’t lose the remaining $150k/yr in salary at a new firm.
That being said, the job market is irreparably broken at the moment, because of what you just mentioned about high salary demands. The high demands are due to higher costs, which employers aren’t willing to compensate for in salary. As the cost of everything goes up and labor gets let go, there’s this expectation for salaries to go down due to oversupply. This was correct in the era of the Great Recession, but people in all demographics other than the tippy top are out of breathing room. Everything is too expensive to survive on the subsistence wages being offered, and employers have responded by using AI tooling to automate what should really be a fully-human process (hiring), leading to clogs in the gears of the job cycle.
Ultimately something must give, if the ruling powers don’t want to have riots. Either wages have to go up to meet the increased costs of housing, transport, food, healthcare, education, etc - the basic necessities of life - or those costs have to plummet by orders of magnitude that it’d be market-obliterating.
It’s an easier pill to swallow to pay people more, but the pressure isn’t there to do so yet.
For recruiters like yourself, I’m hoping you’re taking hard looks at the market fundamentals and cost of living, and applying pressure to compensation-makers to raise it upward now while the market is broken, rather than trying to catch up to their wiser competition when something snaps. It's cheaper to pay $20k more today, than $35k + recruiting fees tomorrow.
> As a hiring manager in a big company, salary isn’t really much of a consideration for me.
I think this happen higher up. Policies like work from home or not or how many roles to open in what region, how many H1Bs to sponsor is something that happens above the hiring manager roles. Hiring managers sort of work on standard bands or levels I think in most larger companies.
> So in our process, somebody wouldn’t accidentally price themselves out of an opportunity.
The way I had seen it work, is usually positions have to open first. They would be something like "we're opening 3 architect IV positions in Poland and/or UK". So that kind if indicates there is no point in interviewing someone from Seattle asking for a architect V salary band.
Underemployed since 2017, working menial jobs and homeless since mid-'18, not even trying to get a tech job because I can't present myself as middle class.
I'm coping by building a system to solve homelessness in general which I've concluded is impossible by getting a menial job and saving ("just get 2?" Logistics, I have answers for everything).
I'm guessing someone will eventually get me some freelance/contract work and that's how my situation will be resolved ($10k over a month would do). Just building online brands with innovative techniques and sharing results until that day. Yeehaw.
How much do you have saved? It all depends on that
I made a bunch of friends in the local rave & queer community, helped start organizations including founding a hackerspace, met the love of my life, and now am part of a very healthy community that has been helping me cope and get through this shitty tech sector hiring slump.
Taking breaks has been very good for my soul, and I've quieted the fear of instability with surrounding myself with people who I know will be there for me when things get rough.
It's surprising how cheaply you can survive when push comes to shove and you have to make concessions, live with roommates, live in small housing, going to the foodbank or getting on food stamps.
Although, runway is slowly dwindling and am unsure what's next for my future. I'm not too worried, though.
1.5 years about
Doing okay. Building my friendships.
Yes but I took the time off somewhat intentionally. I spent 3+ years not working. I tried finding work in NYC for a couple of those years but it never manifested. It got to me in the end and I got tired of some issues I was having in NYC.
I ended up having to come back to the bay area prematurely. I want to live here long term but it wasn't the right fit for where I'm at in life. (Single mid-30s male - dying alone) I'm working at a FAANG. I've studied well over 1000+ LC problems, paid for professional tutoring/mocks in LC and System Design, dozens of free mock interviews, and several hundred actual interviews over the years.
The way I coped was working even harder at studying and having an otherwise busy life in other aspects. When I looked for jobs in the past - it was a full-time job just from the studying aspect.
I've been unemployed since 2013 and honestly... the whole thing has been beneficial. I went through a long period of trying to find work initially, and ended up self-sabotaging offers due to intense stress. Then after that I kind of felt worthless and depressed. Took some introspection to realize I was being ridiculous and that I was more than a job.
I would say even before this all went down things were going badly for me. I had lost my passion for tech for a long time and wondered if that would ever come back... Well, after spending an entire year not coding anything I woke up one day... and felt excited again?
I think that maybe I just had burn out and had never taken a proper break in my life. Makes me realize that a lot of the way I operated was unsustainable... And if its going to end up in me being severely mentally broken to protect myself from stress that I'm self-inducing... its not worth it. Proper rest is the essential piece I never took seriously.
I don't know if I'll end up being hired again and I don't really care. I'm currently working on my open source projects and having a lot of fun. Feels good man.
So explain this, it means you're a trust fund kid?
Why do you feel like a stranger has to justify their finances to you?
I feel like I'm interested how such a life is possible
My last engagement was exactly 2 years ago, after nearly 3 years struggling with successive difficult working environments (bad employer, bad project, bad client). My savings ran out 12 months ago and I still couldn't find a job. Since then I've lived frugally, off of my line of credit and credit cards. Moving to a cheaper country helped to slow the bleeding.
After my last client 2 years ago, I got into reading/listening to philosophy, which eventually led to a steady contemplative practice. 3 months into it, it became difficult to motivate myself to do anything except listen to guided meditations, satsangs by various teachers, contemplate into the sense of self, or go on daily long walks across town doing the same.
A year ago, some motivation came back, which allowed me to do a few coding problems every day. Then about 5 months ago, I started to let go of some personal attachments (identity patterns, beliefs about me, about life, about the world, about my place in it) and motivation started to steadily come back in, but with a lot of detachment. 3 months ago I started prepping to find a job again. I bought a few books and joined a few online courses to fill the gaps in my resume. I've accepted that I may need to get back on the horse at half my previous salary. I think I would be fine with even a third and probably less, if it didn't look so suspicious to my would-be employer, lol. I have an unwavering trust that things will work themselves out just fine, so even when I experience bouts of stress, they're quite brief.
I have some short term goals, but little ambitions. I can still see the achiever in me, but he's slowly dying. I'm fine with that. I'm trying to be fine with how the world is generally. If I feel that I can help make things easier for someone right now, I can try. But I've accepted that I'm no messiah. There are no messiah. Nobody knows shit about how this or that ought to be. Now or in the future. I'm coming to peace with success really meaning experiencing breath or taking a step.
Lately, I've started adding some of the new skills that I acquired in my resume and it correlated with some reactions on my latest applications. Causation? Maybe, I don't know, but there's hope. One thing that will probably change even after I find work, is that I'll execute on my other interests, which I kept putting off, because of some far away grandiose objectives. My recent struggles with money and employment in tech have also revealed a vulnerability and a dependency. I see that I need to be more resilient and adaptable. Next time the industry comes up with new interesting shenanigans to test me, I'll probably be moving on to something else. Beekeeping, fungiculture, soap making, or whatever. I'll probably even start a few projects on the side while employed. I love coding and will probably keep doing it until my mind wavers, but it has to stop being my identity.
I got laid off in august 2023. I had seen it coming for a few months, as I had in the previous year been promoted to lead an engineering team for another company at the PE group I worked for and it quickly became clear they were going to consolidate the product lines at the two companies and my group's CTO lost the political battle.
I was a bit concerned at the time as the previous couple quarters had seen a LOT of tech layoffs and I had also already seen a lot of anxiety in the industry about the changing supply/demand landscape. I ended up getting a new job I was excited about in less than a month, which I was very much not expecting when I began job searching. Unfortunately I may have been too quick to jump into the first thing that came along - after 2 months of onboarding I was out of a job again, as the team lead role I was hired for suddenly didn't have a team to lead and not much use for me without one. Oh well.
I took the holidays off and figured I'd spend some time playing with all the emerging AI capabilities. I figured I'd hack on some fun stuff for a few months, see if I could build a product business around it, and go from there. I ended up building something along the lines of Windows Recall, but when Microsoft announced it in May 24 and I saw the reception, that was the end of that.
I started job searching again, but then my wife got diagnosed with cancer and I decided to extend my time off to focus on her treatment. Fortunately treatment went about as well as we could hope and this summer she went back to work again.
So I've been applying again over the last few months. Initially I focused on local jobs as I've been mostly remote since 2018 and frankly miss the office environment. I got 3 final round interviews in the first month of applying and got ghosted by all 3. That was unexpected and frustrating. And for one job, in my last interview round with a VP, he said he wanted me to come back in a few weeks to interview for a more senior role instead. Which I did, and then they ghosted me. I don't necessarily mind not getting the job (I'm awesome but hey I get there might be better fits out there for particular role requirements) but I don't get the unprofessionalism that has seemingly become so common these days.
Now I'm starting to focus on remote jobs again as well, but it's tough constantly seeing day old job posts on linkedin with 100+ applications already.
So as for coping, I'm doing alright all things considered. Definitely didn't expect to go this long without a 9-5, and I know I'm fortunate to have been able to absorb it financially. Most importantly, I'm grateful that I spent the last year+ making sure my wife was taken care of. And of course that experience really puts into perspective the importance of how we spend our days, while we still have them. I will say that I'm disappointed (with myself) I haven't been able to launch a viable business during this time, but that's how it goes sometimes. I'm looking forward to 2026.
>>seeing day old job posts on linkedin with 100+ applications already.
Don't believe for a second that these figures are real. And I recommend that you apply on the business' own site, never through Linkedin's own process.
It's great that you and your wife are healthy and in a good place! Keep going.
After the latest executive order, your fortunes are going to change very soon. Hang in there!
The woman I thought was the love of my life left me for another man, made me feel guilty about it with a immense net of lies just to not be held accountable so I went into chronic depression. Quit my job at uni in october 2015 just so to not be able to see her ever again. Was unemployed until march 2018. Was broke, heartbroken and humillated not only by my ex but even by my own sister, lost my best friend in the world in part because I was broke and couldn't do much about it, even lost almost all my hair all of a sudden... It was definitely the worst thing I've ever had to endure.
Once I was lucky enough to get a miserable job I could began from the ground up all over again. It hasn't been easy but as the time passed felt like I was regaining my inner peace and as I see it now that is the source of happiness. Not everything is perfect but in 2016-2017 I couldn't even imagine I would escape that situation.
Am a bit scared because the project I'm working on is reaching its final stages so I can be completely unemployed anytime soon once again, but at least this time I'm prepared for it and am doing much better than 10 years ago.
I wish nobody ever has to go through a situation like this. Hoping you all are doing great.
Damn, that’s rough. Glad you made it out okay. Depression really is a crippling disease, and I do encourage anyone to see a psychologist if you experience similar symptoms.
It tremendously helped me recover after someone close to me unexpectedly passed away.
Given the news in the last 24 hrs plenty of opportunity for excellent coders to rise to the top.
This experience, really a decade of insecurity, has left me always being vigilant. If I'm relentless, I don't feel so insecure. The effort has gotten me results. I never wanted to be "so good they can't ignore you", just safe.
Two years is well past the point of having to throw the kitchen sink at the problem. Months in, it's worth having projects in some key technologies. A year in, I'd re-train. I'd also scout out some grants for school/training available to those who've been laid off.
It had me thinking of what I want to impart to my children. I don't want to strike the fear of God in them that you're always on the precipice of doom, but I don't want them complacent either. Robotics x machine-learning/LLMs presents a lot of uncertainty.
I’ve been unemployed for 4 years
Doing my own projects
It’s much harder than just going to a company and clock in 9-5
Yeah but I’ve never been more busy and productive.
Yes, longer. It seems no one wants to hire graduating PhD students without a postdoc or internship.
Huawei which I previously worked for run month long hackathons aimed at PHDs & would offer internships to the top 3 teams with a return offer if they do well. This is Europe only though and competition is tough (~200+ teams with people from around the continent)
Oh no! What field? Are you going to more industrial jobs
Physics - still trying to target pharma DS/ML but may have to contract
Technically 2.5 years here (I had a shitty job in the meantime for 4 months, but it wasn't a tech job). I have a decent GitHub portfolio though and I've made sure to never waste my time. So, I'm unemployed on paper, yet always "employed" building open-source software in reality. I have tried to finish building my cartography startup and my mini-browser engine. Once I have that, I can hopefully support myself with non-software money because the job market in Germany is a complete disaster, I still get interviews (about two per month), but they usually lead nowhere. Sometimes I get into the next round, just to be rejected for someone with more experience.
Sadly (?), I don't have any higher education and I'm too "self-employed" for corporate jobs (corporate jobs really, really don't like having someone build their own startup on the side). And on top I'm 26, not 36, so there's no way I'll have the experience required for someone truly "Senior". I get by on German social security, I get exactly 560€ / month and that's it (plus health insurance, 220€). If you wonder how someone can live on that low amount of money, it's because I accidentally inherited a paid-off house and don't need to pay rent (state covers any taxes, would be even more ludicrous if they didn't). So I have very, very few expenses, no liabilities and a few close friends.
I never wanted to be a drain on society (heavily socially punished in Germany), so I try to stay active and use my time for open-source projects. But since my net loss on society is relatively low anyway, I see it as morally justified to develop my "cartographic AI solution" while being a bum on paper. Let's just call it "government-subsidized startup seed funding". At least the thought of "finish your startup or you'll one day die of starvation" does do wonders for my motivation.
If people want to judge me for being on social security, I don't care anymore. I have my goals and I'm not running out of work, technically, despite being "unemployed". I care about building my skills and my startup and having "something for myself" so that I don't get financially torpedoed every few years (2008 crisis, 2015 crisis, Corona 2020, AI bubble 2025, ...). Once the job market gets better or I finish building my startup, I'll be better off. Until then I just have to deal with judging looks. How on earth someone is however supposed to build a stable family life from software engineering if the job market shits itself every few years is beyond me. I guess I lack the firm handshake and smile.
I did buy "Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata", once I'm done with my programming projects, I'll focus on that. Some of my friends can speak fluent Latin, I gotta catch up. And learning math properly, working out, etc. But yeah, I'm lucky that I don't have many expenses. Stay active, don't waste time.
Ignore those who judge you.
You’re doing something that will move you closer to getting a job or earning income (ie paying taxes).
What do people do if they don’t have a house? You can’t live on 500 if you also have to pay rent.
If you like LLPSI and you're in your twenties, you may also like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44771202
I quit my last job. I found myself thinking that the easy way out was really attractive, and I was seeing fewer and fewer downsides. Then I thought, I might as well quit, enjoy as much as I could, then take the easy way out when my account ran down to zero. Then, as it was approaching zero, I found out I could start withdrawing pension from my old job, with a heavy penalty for doing so early. Fuck it. I did that. Now I'm limping by on about $1500 a month. It's working for now, but I can imagine the end not too far away. But that eternal darkness is more attractive than dealing with the day to day bullshit of working while my country falls quickly into fascism, in addition to the normal fucked up capitalist morality and thinking.
This is a tough read.
I’d probably have a similar mindset as you, but responsibilities for others is one force that keeps us going.
I don’t have any advice other than finding a support group online or offline.
Hope you’ll experience brighter days.
I hope with the Trump H1B changes, you get back on your feet.
Almost 2 years for me but I've hardly applied anywhere in that time. I'm disgusted at what the field has become and can't see myself working in it again.
I saw this coming for a long time and kept my lifestyle simple and expenses low so that I'd be able to retire early. I'm happy to work again if I can find something reasonable but I'm not going to kill myself anymore faking my way through some "agile" AI/ad-tech company job.
You go where the work is, and you have unrelated skills you can fall back on to put food on the table.
If society wants to burn itself down by forcing competent people into poverty and homelessness, then it loses the benefits that those people would bring. That can only go on for so long, the worse it is, the more violent the times become because people become more desperate and without future; a complete abandonment of the social contract.
Its a sticky choice of recognizing bad investments. If the loud voices want to pretend its not happening, they can pretend, but they aren't fooling anyone. They just show how malicious they are, and while violence can never be justified in a civilized society, when you have systems forcing people to poverty/slavery you are no longer in a civilized society.
All it takes is around 10-20 years of continuous systemic abuse, the people remember and talk, and the generation that comes after are not fooled by the lies. They come prepared to do what's necessary, such is the rise and fall of empires historically.
yes 2.5+ now. pivoting to become a mental health therapist now lol
I would pivot to teacher or something after 1 year but market is really fucking bad.
Thankfully I'm employed, but from what I've heard there pro diversity bias against hiring straight white males.
Does that have any basis in anybody's personal experience?
Yes I've heard lots of weak people discussing a fear of competing in a wider talent pool and then crying about "bias" as an excuse rather than taking responsibility for their own results.
We hear often about isms of all sorts, but as soon as someone mentions an unsympathetic group, all of a sudden isms magically disappear. Further, even bringing up the idea is aggressively chastised.
Do I have any more information on the subject than anyone else? No.
I wish.. must be incredibly liberating and relaxing to be off for two years or more. Living the life of an XVIIIth century aristocrat just with more material comforts and less status.
I take from this you would like to be employed? If so, what are you doing to change the situation (instead of coping with it as it stands)?
I know it's hard out there (at least where I am) but I have helped a few people get jobs in the last 90 days, so please share the barrier you're facing and maybe someone can help.
Tech-wise in the US it was tough. I went to work in factory for a bit. I had recruiters hitting me up but they were 6 month contracts so I kept turning those down but eventually I just accepted one and I'm almost a year in now.
I will note I at the time had 5 YOE but no degree so that is a factor (many I don't qualify since no degree).
Reading r/cscareerquestions is depressing not that I go on there much now. People talking about applying to thousands of jobs.
So apply to thousands of jobs then? That's only a couple applications a day for 2 years.
And I'm not saying this from an ivory tower, my first job took 700 applications in 2021. But until you have a job, your job is to apply 8 hours a day
2021 and 2025 are different.
I have a friend who is a SSE. Mid 30s. Been fully employed his entire life. No degree. Has been writing production code since 15.
His entire local professional network got nuked and people stopped hiring because of that stupid software engineering R&D amortization budget deception of Section 174. And I assume the double whammy of ai.
He had his resume reviewed, ran it by friends it looked good and solid.
Applied to about 300 roles before realizing it was a non starter and he was getting automated rejections for everything.
He had to automate his application process around a full career CV and Ai.
He would spend all day copying in role descriptions and urls and had cursor spit out custom .MD resumes and then run a pdf generator on them.
It was kinda ok and also kinda like each resume was a hyper specific lie. It definitely hallucinated.
He still hit 3k resumes before getting hired and he still only had like 4 companies give interviews.
And that was only after that stupid tax law was revoked.
One persons past suffering and struggle cannot be so naively extrapolated to anothers current suffering.
I'm trying to understand Section 174 impact especially because your friend's persistence seems like a good litmus test that positive changes are afoot. Also I have a daughter who will be looking for R&D/R&E EE position when she graduates in 2026.
Needing to amortize expenses over 15 years puts a big damper on anything corps may be excited about today but with less than 100% assurance of in the long run? Restoring the pre-2022 regime for domestic expenses only is for the most part supporting domestic workers? So your friend is back in a more familiar job market... maybe college grads too? Thanks.
Here's an explanation of how the Section 174 change contributed to SWE layoffs during 2023-2025: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44226571
It's been reversed now, but the inertia is still being felt. The backlog of highly qualified engineers ares still competing for positions, and other factors such as the interest rate and the effect of AI on positions for younger engineers are still in effect.
thx kindly
Did he try any other approaches? If the approach I took gave me a 0.1% interview rate I'd probably do something different.
What are people doing to need 700 applications? If you went to university, usually you'd be able to get an internship after 4-5 applications & a return offer. Then afterwards just stay put when the economy isn't doing well and hop around when it is.
Big vibes of “just walk into all the offices and hand them a paper copy of your resume, people love that kind of initiative!”
Categorically wrong. Graduates exceed jobs/internships (if you pass the ATS gods)
He should have said good graduates with good grades, not middling types that turn up and put name to paper.
People also just shotgun applications, why would a company look at a unpersoanlized lazy shotgunned job application?
Based on anecdotal data, companies don’t look at any personalized resume. Much better use of your time to send your standard cover letter and resume. Just apply to positions where you are, at least, 80% match. And yes you will never find 100% match, most employers make up requirements anyways.
This is my experience too. It didn't used to be this way. I always used to research a company, tailor my CV and add a cover letter. I'd be hired within 1-3 applications.
Now? It seems a waste of time because no one responds anyway. I'm incentivised to apply to as many as possible in the hope of having a conversation with someone.
Good thing I never had to write more than 10 to land a job...
for a while I actually studied the target company, and wrote a half-page cover letter detailing why I thought what they were doing was really interesting, and how it dovetailed with my background.
those didn't come back with any more frequency than the auto-apply