I'm a big fan of Proton, and I couldn't imagine using anyone else's email services, but in the age of ID verification for porn and governments trying to ban VPNs, I just hope there aren't any bears that feel this poke is too hard.
I'm not from the US, so please bear with me, but does this mean that, if I were to study there, I wouldn't be able to enter the campus without being tracked by a private company?
It is very good that Flock is getting so much negative attention, but I fear that Flock may be a "trap crop" in this space, distracting the public taking all the heat while some other companies are doing the same thing without all the public awareness.
Regular folks often refer to any larger-than-phone, smaller-than-laptop device they see with a screen as an iPad, even if it's a hardwired Clover payment terminal running Android. The description is wrong, but it's easier to accept it than to correct it. I'm over it.
Regular folks can go ahead and call any nefariously-networked camera a Flock camera. This description is also wrong, but I'm over it as well.
We all know something about what it does, and that it is bad. Regular folks are often unaware at all that Heroin was once a product and trademark of Bayer, or that Bayer was the first to mass-produce the substance.
But we all know what is meant when someone mentions heroin. We know what is meant when someone talks about the iPad at the checkout counter at a restaurant, or says to get a Band-Aid from the cabinet or a box of Kleenex from the pantry. Beyond a certain age, at least, there's no issue with understanding what is being conveyed when a person Xeroxes a document.
We can understand these nouns even in the face of Clover payment terminals, Equate bandages, Puffs facial tissues, and Brother copiers.
We know (if we're paying attention at all) what a Flock camera is. It doesn't really matter that if it actually says Axiom on the box, instead; "Flock" doesn't serve to substantially diminish the understanding of what is being referred to.
In terms of spreading helpful information, "flock camera" is nice and easy. It communicates what needs to be communicated in a way that can be understood.
Besides, we don't have a good, concise, specific term for items like this. If we used the generic term, Automatic License Plate Reader (or ALPR), then that conversation would just make a normie's eyes glaze over and they'd stop listening.
We need to turn town/city level "stop/cancel Flock contract" momentum into state-level privacy laws that prohibit the general behavior.
One of the things we need to develop is a rough shape these laws should take, as it's not immediately apparent [0]. For starters - prohibiting ALPR/face recognition/anything else that turns standing video surveillance into personally identifiable information. Prohibiting city/town/state governments from setting these up on public property. Prohibiting corporate owned/controlled/backhauled cameras recording at any area that hasn't been expressly authorized by its owner/occupant. Statutory limits of retention times, and a requirement that all corporate users of surveillance cameras publish their locations and retention policy.
That's what I can think of off the top of my head. It's a thorny problem because there are longstanding uses of video surveillance that are mostly okay, while only sometimes abusive. The real sea change with "Flock" is the scale and the automation.
[0] whereas the way to approach tackling online surveillance is apparent - ie privacy legislation akin to the GDPR
The two in my California neighborhood actually got cut down about a month ago and one hasn't been replaced yet (still shows active on that map). My neighborhood board voted to tell the Sheriff's department NOT to replace it.
It's interesting how there's pretty strong voices on all sides of the political spectrum calling for the removal of them (for different reasons).
Beautifully put together. I was disgusted to know Home Depot allowed for cameras facing each exit, meanwhile others like Lowe's pushed back. I will never go to Home Depo again, and find most product same pricing or few cents more expensive at Lowe's. Who cares? These people been #1 customers for HD and this is how you pay back...
I wish some rich Law Firm would file a class action lawsuit against Home Depo for violation of basic privacy. All you need is a receipt of purchased product, as there is no other way to enter their premises than to park upfront and get your license read and stored indefinitely.
I'm a big fan of Proton, and I couldn't imagine using anyone else's email services, but in the age of ID verification for porn and governments trying to ban VPNs, I just hope there aren't any bears that feel this poke is too hard.
Proton is in bed with the bears.
Care to elaborate?
I think we're supposed to hate proton and everything they do bc one of their donators is politically toxic to some people.
This map is missing a number of locations near me that DeFlock (https://deflock.org/) has. For example, entrances to Stanford's campus.
> entrances to Stanford's campus
Wtf?
I'm not from the US, so please bear with me, but does this mean that, if I were to study there, I wouldn't be able to enter the campus without being tracked by a private company?
Yes. But Stanford is already a private company that tracks you.
Yes, but it's not collecting excessive data and handing it over to a fascist state.
It's likely they already are. And if they aren't, they would roll over like a fat dog in heat if the feds pushed a little.
Are you sure?
Protons map includes other countries.
It is very good that Flock is getting so much negative attention, but I fear that Flock may be a "trap crop" in this space, distracting the public taking all the heat while some other companies are doing the same thing without all the public awareness.
I'm not worried about it. It's just a word.
Regular folks often refer to any larger-than-phone, smaller-than-laptop device they see with a screen as an iPad, even if it's a hardwired Clover payment terminal running Android. The description is wrong, but it's easier to accept it than to correct it. I'm over it.
Regular folks can go ahead and call any nefariously-networked camera a Flock camera. This description is also wrong, but I'm over it as well.
I'm not worried about genericized trademarks. We may end up getting rid of Flock the company without getting rid of what Flock is doing.
What I'm trying to convey is this:
We may end up getting rid of Flock the company (ha, as if), but we'll always have [what people call] Flock cameras.
Bayer Heroin
Yeah. You get it. Heroin is bad.
We all know something about what it does, and that it is bad. Regular folks are often unaware at all that Heroin was once a product and trademark of Bayer, or that Bayer was the first to mass-produce the substance.
But we all know what is meant when someone mentions heroin. We know what is meant when someone talks about the iPad at the checkout counter at a restaurant, or says to get a Band-Aid from the cabinet or a box of Kleenex from the pantry. Beyond a certain age, at least, there's no issue with understanding what is being conveyed when a person Xeroxes a document.
We can understand these nouns even in the face of Clover payment terminals, Equate bandages, Puffs facial tissues, and Brother copiers.
We know (if we're paying attention at all) what a Flock camera is. It doesn't really matter that if it actually says Axiom on the box, instead; "Flock" doesn't serve to substantially diminish the understanding of what is being referred to.
In terms of spreading helpful information, "flock camera" is nice and easy. It communicates what needs to be communicated in a way that can be understood.
Besides, we don't have a good, concise, specific term for items like this. If we used the generic term, Automatic License Plate Reader (or ALPR), then that conversation would just make a normie's eyes glaze over and they'd stop listening.
We need to turn town/city level "stop/cancel Flock contract" momentum into state-level privacy laws that prohibit the general behavior.
One of the things we need to develop is a rough shape these laws should take, as it's not immediately apparent [0]. For starters - prohibiting ALPR/face recognition/anything else that turns standing video surveillance into personally identifiable information. Prohibiting city/town/state governments from setting these up on public property. Prohibiting corporate owned/controlled/backhauled cameras recording at any area that hasn't been expressly authorized by its owner/occupant. Statutory limits of retention times, and a requirement that all corporate users of surveillance cameras publish their locations and retention policy.
That's what I can think of off the top of my head. It's a thorny problem because there are longstanding uses of video surveillance that are mostly okay, while only sometimes abusive. The real sea change with "Flock" is the scale and the automation.
[0] whereas the way to approach tackling online surveillance is apparent - ie privacy legislation akin to the GDPR
The two in my California neighborhood actually got cut down about a month ago and one hasn't been replaced yet (still shows active on that map). My neighborhood board voted to tell the Sheriff's department NOT to replace it.
It's interesting how there's pretty strong voices on all sides of the political spectrum calling for the removal of them (for different reasons).
Why are there so few cameras in Manhattan, but so many almost everywhere else? San Francisco has a ton of them for example.
The NYPD already have a far more invasive system, 'Domain Awareness'.
Wow, they're everywhere. I did not realize the extent of it
There's one in Cuba and others scattered around Mexico. Also Hawaii and South Africa.
Earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50222574
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50215695
This is really great, amazing. Thanks Proton for rolling this out.
That must be a treasure trove of camera data.
Beautifully put together. I was disgusted to know Home Depot allowed for cameras facing each exit, meanwhile others like Lowe's pushed back. I will never go to Home Depo again, and find most product same pricing or few cents more expensive at Lowe's. Who cares? These people been #1 customers for HD and this is how you pay back...
I wish some rich Law Firm would file a class action lawsuit against Home Depo for violation of basic privacy. All you need is a receipt of purchased product, as there is no other way to enter their premises than to park upfront and get your license read and stored indefinitely.
I can only speak to my own experiences but plenty of Lowes have cameras pointing at or away from their parking lots around my area. Same with HD.
At my local pair of stores (Home Depot and Lowe's across the street), it's the Lowe's lot that has a Flock camera on every entrance.
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