If someone says Google can't be trusted for purchases of long-term, capital-style goods like a thermostat (or smoke detectors), I'd have to agree.
The Nest I bought way back when may still be installed in the home I sold 10+ years ago.
But I didn't buy it from Google, I bought it from Nest (pre-Google) - a company that designed and sold high-tech gear that was designed to be permanently installed and (presumably) last a good long time. The acquisition was not a good match, but it is what it is - lesson learned and reputations lost.
(and the design, honestly, was more down Apple's lane than Google's - I thought the former would be more likely to buy them out, not that it guaranteed any different results).
I think that's an overly optimistic take, because we've been through this over and over, and it's only getting worse. We collectively are clearly not getting the message, and we don't own anything as a result.
Actually, I agree. I wasn't talking about consumer boycotts in particular. With the current concentration of money and power, consumer choice has less influence on corporations with each passing day. This is made abundantly clear with the current wipeout of the personal computing market to make way for AI data centers.
So I believe that the lesson we should learn here is the importance of public pressure and proper regulations that rein in bad actors.
I have one objection, though. It's a mistake to think that Anthropic is on the consumer's side. That's the same mistake we've made over and over.
What a coincidence, I am working on deploying the https://nolongerevil.com/ on my 2nd Gen Nest Thermostat, my wife has bugging me for weeks to either fix it or buy a new one.
I am actually going to self-host and vibe code my own cloud service on Cloudflare.
Why bother? Block WAN access at the router, put the entire thing behind a VPN (Tailscale or Wireguard, dealers choice), and move on. If you really care, put everything you vibe code or consider security-abandonware on its own VLAN.
Keep it off the WAN and you'll be streets ahead of commercial vendors, and your weird, one-off, vibe-coded app means those same commercial vendors are the easier, more widely-deployed targets anyways.
Could do something like oauth to gmail + OTP (or passkeys) on cloudflare workers with long lived sessions or I could vibe code an iOS app even and side load it. That would be very secure as well. I haven't decided yet.
I have a personal password manager secured like that I vibe coded to replace 1password and so far it is working great.
Nest is a disaster. Same with their fire alarms. I spent a small fortune buying those, just to rip them out and dump into garbage. Google hardware - never again.
It truly is, and it's a shame since the hardware build quality was solid.
My gen 3 had a bug where when selecting heat mode from off mode after previously being in cooling mode, it'd pulse the AC briefly before ultimately engaging heat, which is absolutely not what you want to do when it's below safe operating temp for the AC compressor.
It was a really basic thing that would have been quickly patched if owned by a thermostat company, but clearly asking too much when owned by an advertising company.
not the parent, but when my nest protects died i switched to dumb ones. all co2 detectors expire after ten years, nest decided the appropriate action is to just brick it when they were ten years old. the only feature i really used was using the app to silence it when cooking got smoky. but theres very few options for smart ones, lack of interconnect compatibility got frustrating if i wanted to mix smart and dumb, and it would have easily cost twice as much(i have 6 detectors).
ive considered connecting the interconnect wire to my esp32 (that replaced the security system) and get it pushed into home assistant, but without the ability to silence, a push notification that it is going off just didnt seem worth it
100% agree. i had a thermostat and 4 cameras. abysmal software, and the hardware started dying . The thermostat died after 3 years, due to faulty "smart" HVAC circuitry . The doorbell camera (with built in lithium battery, ) died after 5 years.
They are simple to contol, turn a dial to the temperature you want. Remote control and sensors are just things Google has convinced you to think you need so you'll buy their fancy thermostat (that is now e-waste).
That gives you a false sense of precision. I had a bad experience with an old one. 100% would not buy the old mercury tech over anything else "smart" or not available today
i marvel at simple mechanical-electric solutions . e.g. toasters, simple coffee pots, thermostats. 100+ year duty cycles. amazing elegance and resilience
On one hand, I obviously can’t legitimately expect the manufacturers of these things to support their older hardware offerings ad vitam aeternam.
On the other, it’s a freaking thermostat controller. An appliance. I don’t want to have to replace appliances before they break, and software breaking it is unacceptable.
I’ve been largely holding off on domotics because so much of it reeks of premature obsolescence... Maybe someone over here has good experience with Home Assistant et al?
I've recently set up Home Assistant again after a 5 year hiatus. All my old devices still work fine.
I primarily use zigbee, which is fully local and very reliable. Home Assistant supports a lot, including older hardware. I have a 2010 Philips LivingColors lamp (predecessor of the Hue) that talks early zigbee and still connects to a 2026 zigbee dongle + Home Assistant install.
I avoid any cloud dependency for the reason you give. Anything local, especially with open protocols and an active community, will probably work for a very long time. Likely the lifetime of the appliance.
I've been using NodeRED + zigbee2mqtt/zwavejs for my locally controlled home automation to great effect. I expose all my devices to Google Home as a convenient frontend, but all the actual devices are mine and locally controlled so I can replace Google at any point. I tried home assistant years ago, but aside from the wealth of plugins I didn't find its approach particularly convincing. I have on occasion used it simply as a bridge between node red and HA plugins before though which is nice for niche devices or integrations
I was looking at wireless cameras on eBay and had to stop because I realized I can't just check specs and price. I have to make sure they don't require a cloud connection and or a service plan.
I just bought a couple of Reolink RLC-810A cameras, and realized too late (after receiving them) that they require an app just to enable communications and configure the baseline RTSP functionality. Claude found https://github.com/TinKurbatoff/reolink-init# and took care of the issue nicely.
I will probably buy a couple more of the RLC-810As, since I can only assume that newer models will be harder for the owner to actually own.
plenty of things should have a mandatory sort of twenty year supportability warranty. not necessarily free repairs but an enforceable promise that a thing / "ecosystem" can be used for a reasonably expected lifetime
Have since replaced it with a Z wave Honeywell thermostat, and I'm much happier.
Not only did I kill the wifi & Internet dependency, but the UX is much closer to a traditional thermostat. So other folks don't seem to have an issue with it as much.
And it actually supports my hardware thermometer for dual fuel cutover.
If it depends on some services that are being sunset then the cost of getting them working again approximates the cost of getting them working in the first place.
in theory AI can produce the ongoing software support. and the compute bill is trivial compared to even a single AI assistant customer (1/500). something doesn't add up
Should you throw out your entire home every 1–2 years, just because a corporation would like you to?
It's not a phone, so we're not necessarily expecting the lack-of-longevity we'd expect of a phone. (Although even a lot of phones are basically corp "can-you-upgrade-every-2-yr-or-more".)
Another case of a smart home device that unnecessarily needs someone else's servers. They could've made it controllable over the local network and that would've solved, like, 80% of this issue.
I have a z-wave hub I bought about 8 years ago. Admittedly, it's shit, but it does one thing right — you only need the manufacturer's cloud services if you want to control it from outside of your LAN, or if you want integrations with other services.
As if dumb thermostats last really that long.
Ours from Brötli died after around four years.
The replacement has a manufacturing date from 2008 -- what a joke.
The firmware in those things has bugs (like switching some, but not all programs at midnight) that will never get fixed; it works, but not flawless.
Considering this I wouldn't mind a smart solution that lasts /only/ ten years, but gets bug fixes during its lifetime.
The law should require that if a company sells hardware that depends on an internet service, and later discontinues that service, it must open-source the communication protocol and provide a way to connect the hardware to alternative services. This requirement should cover every feature that was functional when the device was sold.
Fortunately Nest owners got lucky this time and there was an escape hatch that allowed projects like No Longer Evil. But there's a long list of devices that have been bricked when their manufacturers shut down a proprietary backend.
Someone has to write 'The law', and we need to prioritize politicians that do (instead of those that are trying to get views on social media by getting quips/gotcha moments).
One of many reasons I prefer home automation hardware that uses ZigBee, Z-Wave, or Thread over using WiFi. If it uses WiFi it almost always wants to connect to or worse requires a cloud, where the dedicated home automation network tech is basically the polar opposite and requires that it work entire directly locally or with a local hub.
Other major reason being that "IoT" devices usually have the shittiest WiFi radios that usually don't even support 5 GHz and almost never support WiFi 6/7 modes where they aren't wasting a ton of airtime on their low-bandwidth communication.
The Matter standard[0] (+HomeAssistant) starts to fix this, but almost all "smart" appliances have this flaw. From Lutron, GE, Apple, Amazon (ring), Philips(Hue), Samsung, LG, Control4, Ecobee, ADT, Schneier, Chamberlain, Tapo.
Matter only sort of solves it because a lot of Matter devices (most in my personal experience) use WiFi and often intentionally neuter their Matter support to "encourage" you to use their app and/or cloud integration with a major voice assistant.
I have a pair of Govee ceiling lights that have a RGB+CCT primary downward facing light and an addressable RGB accent ring. The ARGB ring only exists in their app. As far as both their Matter support and their official API are concerned these units have a single element which is the downward light, the ARGB ring is not controllable from any third-party systems.
If these were using Zigbee, Z-Wave, or Matter over Thread they wouldn't be able to do this but because they use WiFi they can.
I'm going to be opening one up soonish to see how hard it'll be to just replace the controller with one running WLED (or even reprogram the controller already in it).
Agree.. although that brand isn't very reliable/a good industry indicator/always pulls that nonsense (I have some of their devices, all paired to an old phone on a vlan without internet.. the features "require wifi" but only because they want their app to overshare).
Honestly, given the surveillance capitalism of it all, I take this as a win. The termostst should have been dumb the whole time, not an avenue for harvesting our data.
This thing was released in 2011, and can be replaced in 5 minutes for like $100. This is probably longer than any "smart" device from any manufacturer has ever worked. Not everything needs to be an anti-Google crusade.
If someone says Google can't be trusted for purchases of long-term, capital-style goods like a thermostat (or smoke detectors), I'd have to agree. The Nest I bought way back when may still be installed in the home I sold 10+ years ago.
But I didn't buy it from Google, I bought it from Nest (pre-Google) - a company that designed and sold high-tech gear that was designed to be permanently installed and (presumably) last a good long time. The acquisition was not a good match, but it is what it is - lesson learned and reputations lost.
(and the design, honestly, was more down Apple's lane than Google's - I thought the former would be more likely to buy them out, not that it guaranteed any different results).
> lesson learned and reputations lost
I think that's an overly optimistic take, because we've been through this over and over, and it's only getting worse. We collectively are clearly not getting the message, and we don't own anything as a result.
Consumer boycotts never work. The only way to fix this is regulation and/or Claude assisted hacking.
Actually, I agree. I wasn't talking about consumer boycotts in particular. With the current concentration of money and power, consumer choice has less influence on corporations with each passing day. This is made abundantly clear with the current wipeout of the personal computing market to make way for AI data centers.
So I believe that the lesson we should learn here is the importance of public pressure and proper regulations that rein in bad actors.
I have one objection, though. It's a mistake to think that Anthropic is on the consumer's side. That's the same mistake we've made over and over.
My boycott has worked flawlessly.
one if the problems being the freedoms companies can be bought for the purposes of being destroyed
What a coincidence, I am working on deploying the https://nolongerevil.com/ on my 2nd Gen Nest Thermostat, my wife has bugging me for weeks to either fix it or buy a new one.
I am actually going to self-host and vibe code my own cloud service on Cloudflare.
nice, how do you plan to secure it?
Why bother? Block WAN access at the router, put the entire thing behind a VPN (Tailscale or Wireguard, dealers choice), and move on. If you really care, put everything you vibe code or consider security-abandonware on its own VLAN.
Keep it off the WAN and you'll be streets ahead of commercial vendors, and your weird, one-off, vibe-coded app means those same commercial vendors are the easier, more widely-deployed targets anyways.
Could do something like oauth to gmail + OTP (or passkeys) on cloudflare workers with long lived sessions or I could vibe code an iOS app even and side load it. That would be very secure as well. I haven't decided yet.
I have a personal password manager secured like that I vibe coded to replace 1password and so far it is working great.
how do you flash? do you need uart ?
You just need a microUSB cable IIRC
Nest is a disaster. Same with their fire alarms. I spent a small fortune buying those, just to rip them out and dump into garbage. Google hardware - never again.
> Nest is a disaster
It truly is, and it's a shame since the hardware build quality was solid.
My gen 3 had a bug where when selecting heat mode from off mode after previously being in cooling mode, it'd pulse the AC briefly before ultimately engaging heat, which is absolutely not what you want to do when it's below safe operating temp for the AC compressor.
It was a really basic thing that would have been quickly patched if owned by a thermostat company, but clearly asking too much when owned by an advertising company.
Never again.
Did you move to a different “smart” smoke detector? Just go with an old school “dumb” one?
not the parent, but when my nest protects died i switched to dumb ones. all co2 detectors expire after ten years, nest decided the appropriate action is to just brick it when they were ten years old. the only feature i really used was using the app to silence it when cooking got smoky. but theres very few options for smart ones, lack of interconnect compatibility got frustrating if i wanted to mix smart and dumb, and it would have easily cost twice as much(i have 6 detectors).
ive considered connecting the interconnect wire to my esp32 (that replaced the security system) and get it pushed into home assistant, but without the ability to silence, a push notification that it is going off just didnt seem worth it
100% agree. i had a thermostat and 4 cameras. abysmal software, and the hardware started dying . The thermostat died after 3 years, due to faulty "smart" HVAC circuitry . The doorbell camera (with built in lithium battery, ) died after 5 years.
> $1200 in hardware, practically worthless.
Meanwhile my mercury-bulb thermostat from the 1960s still works perfectly.
They might've not regressed, but those things were bad UX.
Those things are really hard to control, and no scheduling, no remote control, no sensors, etc.
They are simple to contol, turn a dial to the temperature you want. Remote control and sensors are just things Google has convinced you to think you need so you'll buy their fancy thermostat (that is now e-waste).
That gives you a false sense of precision. I had a bad experience with an old one. 100% would not buy the old mercury tech over anything else "smart" or not available today
i marvel at simple mechanical-electric solutions . e.g. toasters, simple coffee pots, thermostats. 100+ year duty cycles. amazing elegance and resilience
My wife bugs me to replace physical light switches with smart one. Sorry I'm too busy for that one lol.
On one hand, I obviously can’t legitimately expect the manufacturers of these things to support their older hardware offerings ad vitam aeternam.
On the other, it’s a freaking thermostat controller. An appliance. I don’t want to have to replace appliances before they break, and software breaking it is unacceptable.
I’ve been largely holding off on domotics because so much of it reeks of premature obsolescence... Maybe someone over here has good experience with Home Assistant et al?
You could expect them to support the product for the lifespan of the product, though.
I've recently set up Home Assistant again after a 5 year hiatus. All my old devices still work fine.
I primarily use zigbee, which is fully local and very reliable. Home Assistant supports a lot, including older hardware. I have a 2010 Philips LivingColors lamp (predecessor of the Hue) that talks early zigbee and still connects to a 2026 zigbee dongle + Home Assistant install.
I avoid any cloud dependency for the reason you give. Anything local, especially with open protocols and an active community, will probably work for a very long time. Likely the lifetime of the appliance.
I've been using NodeRED + zigbee2mqtt/zwavejs for my locally controlled home automation to great effect. I expose all my devices to Google Home as a convenient frontend, but all the actual devices are mine and locally controlled so I can replace Google at any point. I tried home assistant years ago, but aside from the wealth of plugins I didn't find its approach particularly convincing. I have on occasion used it simply as a bridge between node red and HA plugins before though which is nice for niche devices or integrations
why not? a couple of raspberry pis could probably serve all of them
It still works as a thermostat.
Also I assume it still can be controlled from your phone? Only the "learning" features are gone.
device screen only. i tossed mine and got an ecobee.
I was looking at wireless cameras on eBay and had to stop because I realized I can't just check specs and price. I have to make sure they don't require a cloud connection and or a service plan.
I just bought a couple of Reolink RLC-810A cameras, and realized too late (after receiving them) that they require an app just to enable communications and configure the baseline RTSP functionality. Claude found https://github.com/TinKurbatoff/reolink-init# and took care of the issue nicely.
I will probably buy a couple more of the RLC-810As, since I can only assume that newer models will be harder for the owner to actually own.
plenty of things should have a mandatory sort of twenty year supportability warranty. not necessarily free repairs but an enforceable promise that a thing / "ecosystem" can be used for a reasonably expected lifetime
for a thermostat that's measured in decades
They could easily license the server component to allow you to run it, or unlock the bootloader so you could run third party firmware.
They've had 10+ years to plan ahead for this eventuality, and it's not rocket science.
I got rid of mine, possibly hastily.
Have since replaced it with a Z wave Honeywell thermostat, and I'm much happier.
Not only did I kill the wifi & Internet dependency, but the UX is much closer to a traditional thermostat. So other folks don't seem to have an issue with it as much.
And it actually supports my hardware thermometer for dual fuel cutover.
The emudhra debacle might turn out to be an accidental boon for keeping devices like this running.
To a point anyway.
wouldn't they have to be an emudhra customer (their ssl certs signed by emudhra)?
only if they couldn't brute force their private keys. one of which i can fully recite from memory right here: 4
If I understood correctly, emudhra was able to issue certificate to any website.
Therefore if some device trusts emudhra root certificate...
Google usually does certificate pinning. They know that the CA root store is not to be trusted to sign for their own domains.
I assume that devices unable to do certificate revocation will also not do certificate pinning.
[flagged]
I turn mine to dumb again as the smart functions are not smart enough and I spend more money than a basic calendar.
The procedure is simple. 2 fix periods : one in the morning one in the evening and in between if somebody comes home he/she turns the heat manually.
I didn’t see any advantage more inconvenient: * saw people at home that were not * started to heat the whole house while I just work in my office.
I have not yet found a practical case except that I can turn it off remotely when I’m on vacation if i forget.
Are any people here getting any advantages?
I wonder if someone could just reverse engineer the firmware and made your own updates and app?
How much could it possibly cost to keep these working?
If it depends on some services that are being sunset then the cost of getting them working again approximates the cost of getting them working in the first place.
The opportunity cost of people upgrading.
in theory AI can produce the ongoing software support. and the compute bill is trivial compared to even a single AI assistant customer (1/500). something doesn't add up
why keep the software up when you can force people to buy another every 5 years
These things are 15 years old. Are you still using an iPhone 4?
Should you throw out your entire home every 1–2 years, just because a corporation would like you to?
It's not a phone, so we're not necessarily expecting the lack-of-longevity we'd expect of a phone. (Although even a lot of phones are basically corp "can-you-upgrade-every-2-yr-or-more".)
15 is an order of magnitude different than 1-2
And I have to replace my HVAC every 20 years so yes I do expect to have to spend money once every couple decades
This is closer to a light switch than the HVAC itself. Do you expect those to need replacement at 10-15 years?
Another case of a smart home device that unnecessarily needs someone else's servers. They could've made it controllable over the local network and that would've solved, like, 80% of this issue.
I have a z-wave hub I bought about 8 years ago. Admittedly, it's shit, but it does one thing right — you only need the manufacturer's cloud services if you want to control it from outside of your LAN, or if you want integrations with other services.
is there nest alternative somewhere that does not need cloud
As if dumb thermostats last really that long. Ours from Brötli died after around four years. The replacement has a manufacturing date from 2008 -- what a joke. The firmware in those things has bugs (like switching some, but not all programs at midnight) that will never get fixed; it works, but not flawless.
Considering this I wouldn't mind a smart solution that lasts /only/ ten years, but gets bug fixes during its lifetime.
My family’s lake cabin has the original 55 year old Honeywell bimetallic strip thermostats in every room and they all work.
How much does the upgrade cost to turn the Nest thermostat dumb? It's probably cheaper to buy a dumb thermostat in the first place.
The law should require that if a company sells hardware that depends on an internet service, and later discontinues that service, it must open-source the communication protocol and provide a way to connect the hardware to alternative services. This requirement should cover every feature that was functional when the device was sold.
Fortunately Nest owners got lucky this time and there was an escape hatch that allowed projects like No Longer Evil. But there's a long list of devices that have been bricked when their manufacturers shut down a proprietary backend.
Someone has to write 'The law', and we need to prioritize politicians that do (instead of those that are trying to get views on social media by getting quips/gotcha moments).
I would never buy an appliance that requires a third-party server. Google cannot remove the value from a Zigbee or Z-Wave thermostat like this.
One of many reasons I prefer home automation hardware that uses ZigBee, Z-Wave, or Thread over using WiFi. If it uses WiFi it almost always wants to connect to or worse requires a cloud, where the dedicated home automation network tech is basically the polar opposite and requires that it work entire directly locally or with a local hub.
Other major reason being that "IoT" devices usually have the shittiest WiFi radios that usually don't even support 5 GHz and almost never support WiFi 6/7 modes where they aren't wasting a ton of airtime on their low-bandwidth communication.
The Matter standard[0] (+HomeAssistant) starts to fix this, but almost all "smart" appliances have this flaw. From Lutron, GE, Apple, Amazon (ring), Philips(Hue), Samsung, LG, Control4, Ecobee, ADT, Schneier, Chamberlain, Tapo.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard)
Matter only sort of solves it because a lot of Matter devices (most in my personal experience) use WiFi and often intentionally neuter their Matter support to "encourage" you to use their app and/or cloud integration with a major voice assistant.
I have a pair of Govee ceiling lights that have a RGB+CCT primary downward facing light and an addressable RGB accent ring. The ARGB ring only exists in their app. As far as both their Matter support and their official API are concerned these units have a single element which is the downward light, the ARGB ring is not controllable from any third-party systems.
If these were using Zigbee, Z-Wave, or Matter over Thread they wouldn't be able to do this but because they use WiFi they can.
I'm going to be opening one up soonish to see how hard it'll be to just replace the controller with one running WLED (or even reprogram the controller already in it).
Agree.. although that brand isn't very reliable/a good industry indicator/always pulls that nonsense (I have some of their devices, all paired to an old phone on a vlan without internet.. the features "require wifi" but only because they want their app to overshare).
Honestly, given the surveillance capitalism of it all, I take this as a win. The termostst should have been dumb the whole time, not an avenue for harvesting our data.
More dumb electronics please.
[flagged]
This thing was released in 2011, and can be replaced in 5 minutes for like $100. This is probably longer than any "smart" device from any manufacturer has ever worked. Not everything needs to be an anti-Google crusade.