“His family described him as a former fighter for the militant Islamist group, but who in his older age had taken an administrative role”
…this sounds like a valid military target. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that, bewilderingly, has declared war on Israel. Whether or not Israel should be mucking around in southern Lebanon is somewhat orthogonal to the validity of an attack on such a man. (And being able to reduce civilian casualties with a phone call is a good thing.)
Given the IDF’s record, I’d assume a more-sympathetic target could be found.
You're led to this conclusion because you have a lack of understanding of the structure of Hezbollah, and a seeming disinterest in understanding it more.
Like it or not, Hezbollah serves a number of functions in Lebanon. They have civil servants (think trash collectors, postal delivery representatives, etc.) They also have politicians.
A corollary would be if the Democratic Party in the United States had a militarized wing, politicians, and civil servants.
It's a structure that those in the West don't recognize or understand, and leads you to the conclusion that anyone killed in the pager attack, for instance, is just terrorist adjacent. So a trash collector who's killed in the pager attack, and their family, are not in fact, 'terrorists'.
Also worth investigating in all of this are the structures and centers of power that are labeling them as a terrorist organization and why.
I don't know so much about Hizballah (though maybe more than the average american), but I do know a bit about Israel and its army.
The late Yeshayahu Leibovitch called certain behaviors "judonazism". And currently this is the mainstream of the Israeli society. Everyone in Israel knows it (though they would try to cast it in different terms), few speak about it, the ones who do get silenced, most simply don't care (who cared in nazi Germany about jews massacred in the woods or starved to death and killed in concentration camps?). The government, the judicial system, and of course the army (just check Haliva's interview on Guardian, and he is, I suspect, "a moderate"..)
This is a fallacious argument. As if it was controversial to say that an organization engaging in lawless violence and terror attacks (imagine if those attacks were against you) doesn't have any moral ground to stand on, even if it does some other things besides that.
It's basically the mafia approach. They are known to help people and stuff sometimes, does it mean we should condone them and protest when they are targeted?
The key people in mafia are also always in "administrative" roles. If you only target the guy pulling the trigger, you would be a fool since he is pretty low among the pawns.
Would you say the same about a 40 year old suburban USA dad who is a Walmart store manager, who served in the US army for 8 years in his twenties? Is that a "valid military target"? Can Iran drop a bomb on the Walmart that he works in?
You can fact-check me on this if you want but soldiers on leave from active duty are not considered combatants and so are not supposed to be targeted.
There was a comment by an Israeli soldier way back at the start of the Gaza thing that stayed with me but I can't find it now of course. He was commenting on the tactic of bombing residential buildings at night with everyone inside asleep to get one Hamas operative. He said something along the lines "imagine if they came after us when we were at home on vacation" or something like that. I don't believe anyone thinks that's fair, or legitimate, or anything of the sort, it's just something that can be done, so it's done.
The way I understand the article above is that there's not even a clear motive anymore. The AI says "bomb them", so they're bombed, end of.
So anyone who is collecting a military pension is a valid military target when traveling abroad and you’ll have no issues with their murder? Why am I struggling to believe you really believe that.
But is it a battlefield situation too? What's the line between "we had no other choice" versus "we could have arrested them and had a trial but murdering them with soldiers is easier"?
For example, suppose a mugger waves a knife at your face, and takes your stuff. Sure, they were "a valid self-defense target"—for thirty seconds—but that can't justify following them home and killing them in their sleep.
No, that’s the point, Israel wants their civilians to not be targeted even though many/ most of them have served in the IDF, but they targeted this man.
In some ways, Israel is a military State because everyone (with some minor exception) is required to serve in the military. If everyone is a trained soldier, the only true civilians are the children ...
Actually not true. Most of the ultra orthodox are exempted from service and are a huge source of the support for continued military operations. Because they don’t have to actually put themselves at risk.
It’s been the primary source of netenyahu’s ability to stay in power.
I'm not sure what you mean. From what I see and conversations I've had with service members, joining the military still absolutely entails awareness (if not quite preparedness) that the person may die for their nation. Are you arguing that people in Hezbollah or the IDF are not aware of this reality?
Ah, thanks for clarifying. But still, my understanding is that military personal are generally aware of their nationalistic-mortality (for lack of a better term) when they are in active duty, but expect to relinquish that mortality risk after they leave the military.
Has that changed in any way? Maybe I'm naive, but it seems to me that there was always a massive distinction between a service member who is currently serving, regardless of whether it's a combat or hq role, and a veteran.
The Internet/OSINT, primarily, if you want an honest answer.
They’re looking for lots of people with security clearances, right now, reportedly…kind of the same thing. Once you’re under the flag, you’re on the board - right, wrong, or indifferent.
There's certainly a good case to be made that Israel basically shaped Hezbollah into its current form as a terrorist organization. It's understandable, but not excusable. There's no excuse for a terrorist organization, on either side of the border.
There seems to be enough excuses for the US congress tho, they weren't that bothered to aid and abet the extermination of Palestinians with bunker buster bombs that wiped out entire bloodlines. Unless you mean that there is no excuse for a "terrorist" organization that is not the ally of the USA.
> There's no excuse for a terrorist organization, on either side of the border.
I disagree; consider Jewish resistance fighters during the holocaust. Should they not have fought back any way they could? Terrorism can be excused when the circumstances are sufficiently dire.
Or the people that aid and support those people. Systems like this, or the Iranian crackdown on protestors earlier this year, show that in our times, an autocratic regime is able to keep power in spite of significant popular resistance. Revolutions like the fall of communism in 1989/1990 seem impossible now. If you lose democracy once, it's over.
They have a bunch of dumb react components that can become the gui for live targeting systems, but that all happens post contract and in the liability of their customers, the organizations willing to expend human capital coming and going, e.g. militaries
Palantir is forward deployed engineers doing whatever their customers need.
Everything else is just marketing and right sizing. For most things yeah, data bricks and no code sounds right. Most of their work is over the counter benign, but that’s to lend credibility to their other initiatives while funding their quite literal war coffers.
>a small village less than three miles from the Israeli border which had turned into a battlefield during Israel’s campaign against Hezbollah in 2024.
Classic New York Times style writing. This sentence should say “Israel attacked this village as part of its invasion of southern Lebanon and Hezbollah defended it”
Imagine if this whitewashing were done to Russia: Karkiv, a small city 10 miles from the Russian boarder which had turned into a battlefield during Russia’s campaign against Zelenski in 2022”
Well, Hezbollah is not defending anything, all they do is shoot rockets and lately fly drones. That's because they don't really have the capability to do anything else, they're a militia up against a fully modernised army and they are forced to fight in an asymmetric manner and so on. One does not simply "defend" territory with irregulars.
I understand that they are in a difficult position for a force that wants to place itself as the legitimate resistance to an invading army, in fact that's the same situation that Hamas finds itself in but with a more obvious occupation (it's not clear to most people that parts of Lebanon are under Israeli occupation, or at least contested).
But what's the end result of fighting? Death and ruin. Nothing else. For Hamas, they had their little "triumph" in October 7 23 and then they lost half of Gaza and the other half is a wasteland. How is that "defending" anything, either the territory or the people? The same thing is happening in Southern Lebanon, and Hezbollah are just as incapable of doing anything to stop the IDF advance as Hamas were in Gaza. They can't defend a thing.
If we are to have any sympathy for the cause, if not the tactics or the ideology, of terrorist resistance groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, we have to also understand that their struggle is hopeless. Violence is clearly not the way for them to win, because the force they are fighting has all the violence. Non-violence is also not an answer because the force they fight has all the violence. They're screwed, quite bad, and there's no way out.
I think it's clear they don't fight to defend anything, just because there's nothing they can do and they might as well go down fighting, or they'll go insane. Or more insane.
I just wanted to clarify the above comment so I'm not misunderstood: no, I have no sympathy for Hezbollah, or their cause. I think they're bloody idiots who have caused untold death and destruction, and now the loss of South Lebanon, for entirely ideological reasons, and for no practical purpose.
You write well and you mean well but what's actually hopeless is trying to use logic with the people who post these kinds of articles and crawl out to comment on them. They're never going to view these conflicts dispassionately, seek out or absorb objective facts or explanations that challenge their preconceptions. They're motivated by an animus toward Israel they nearly all seem to lack toward any other country, they hold Israel to a standard that no other country is actively held to, and yet their worst nightmare is being called antisemites.
Also to be even more clear: while I recognise that Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorists I am not on the side of Israel, either. Israel is a militaristic, belligerent nation that seems to have convinced itself that the only answer to all its problems is to be in a constant state of war against all its neighbours. Prime Minister Netanyahu recently compared Israel's future to Sparta; I'm from Athens. And I'm a peacenick and an anti-nationalist on top of that. The ideology promulgated by Israel's ruling class is against everything I stand for, everything my history and my culture has taught me is sane, and reasonable, and productive.
Anyway when two people (or more, as the case may be) are fighting a war, the last thing that those who wish for peace must do is take a side. Taking a side can only encourage the belligerents to fight even more, because now they have supporters for their cause (safely, from a distance, without skin in the game, but supporters). Again, war is against everything I am for, and so I must stand against war and not on the side of anyone fighting a war.
As to being antisemitic or holding Israel to a special standard, we can talk about Iran, and Russia, and the US, and China, and Darfur, and Nigeria, and everything else that's rotten and makes me angry in the world right now if you want, but of course this discussion is about Israel's use of technology in its current campaign in Lebanon.
Hezbollah at least recently was much stronger than Lebanese army and even nowadays Lebanese army afraid to challenge Hezbollah. Concept of a powerful non state actor is something many people in the west refuse to acknowledge.
It's a country with two power centres and two national armies. Thus, "divide and rule" politics works exceptionally well there and no one should be surprised their lack of political unity is working against them. While the Lebanese army has no love for the Israelis they are acting under US pressure and advise to not get involved as Hezbollah is taking the brunt of the attack, which the US and some Lebanese political actors hope will hope weakens it enough and eventually lead to its merger / absorption. It's an idiotic way to think of, ofcourse, because there is no guarantee that the US and / or Israel are likely to stop the war (or their ethnic cleansing / genocide), or stop making political demands on Lebanon once the Hezbollah is gone. The loss of Hezbollah fighters will mean Lebanon's military actually becomes weaker.
> Beirut (the parts where Hezbollah has the biggest presence, granted) is bombarded every few days
Not in the way it would be if Lebanon declared war on Israel.
> Lebanese people seem to view that differently
Lebanon is uniquely diverse. The Lebanese I know absolutely see it this way, and with justification. (To be clear, that doesn’t make them peachy towards Israel doing the same.)
> with regards to the wars, there is little the opposition would do differently
Oof, I suspect you’re right. A unilateral course, then: the LAF disarms Hezbollah and then restores the Lebanese state’s monopoly on violence within its borders. Ideally timed to a change in political winds for Tel Aviv in America. Possibly with Turkish or even Saudi support. (Not holding my breath for the EU.)
The problem I see: Even if Lebanon did that, there is still no guarantee that Israel would retreat from the areas in the south they occupied. Or even just that they'd stop with the airstrikes (they didn't stop during the previous ceasefire).
The political climate inside Israel seems to become more fundamentalist and belligerent, not less.
So there has to be an outside force that applies pressure to Israel. The only state able to do that is the US - but the US don't seem to be willing to do it.
Same with the Palestinians. Disarming Hezbollah would - very conveniently - remove one of the few remaining protective forces the Palestinians still have. So what would remain then?
> There is bipartisan agreement on the first point.
I don't see how this can be true. The last initiatives to stop weapon sales all died in the House (although with shrinking majorities). Meanwhile weapon sales, military and intelligence cooperation and diplomatic protection continue with no change.
By now a majority among the US population has changed their mind on Israel - but the actual decisionmakers haven't and I don't see that they will in the future either.
> And we should pass into law a process, subject to judicial oversight, that bars even weapons sales to countries systematically engaging in war crimes.
Are you saying that Israel intentionally targets civilians? As a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, Israel is obligated to protect civilians and civilian populations from all dangers arising from military operations, and Israel is prohibited from direct attacks on civilians. The IDF must distinguish between civilian and military objectives and take all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize incidental loss of civilian life. Civilians lose protected status only if they take a direct part in hostilities.
As someone who has lost family and continues to. Have you not been paying attention to what has happened in Gaza? Conservatively.. Well over 20,000 children killed in Gaza alone. What would you call that?
I also recommend looking into an Ai system developed by the Israeli's called "Where's Daddy". Admittedly used during the the Gaza campaign by IOF themselves.
>Are you saying that Israel intentionally targets civilians?
Yes.
>As a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, Israel is obligated to protect civilians and civilian populations from all dangers arising from military operations, and Israel is prohibited from direct attacks on civilians.
They dont do it.
>The IDF must distinguish between civilian and military
This is a very weird way to frame a highly targeted attack against Hezbollah, which achieved a far better civilian casualty ratio than what's possible with conventional warfare.
Semantics drift over time. Whether we like it or not, spectacular and awesome both mean something different today than they did 100 years ago. It's hard to argue that "spectacular" doesn't have a positive connotation today.
"Given a long, slow flyover of Kuwait City and its environs by his Air Force pilots, Baker saw firsthand the awesome destruction allied and Iraqi forces unleashed on the emirate, sweeping past scores of scorched Iraqi tanks and the hundreds of burning oil wells that blackened large portions of the afternoon sky."
Sounds to me like this is just signature strikes but replacing the analysts with AI.
And to think many would cheer if it were being applied to ends they approve of (enforcing some petty domestic law with fines and bureaucrats instead of taking foreign soil with bombs and soldiers, or whatever).
Sorry for taking this on such a weird tangent, but I've been reading the Culture stories and my immediate thinking was - why not? Missiles fly for a relatively long time compared to human decision making, let alone compared to optimized AI agents. There's notechnical barrier to having the missile be controlled by a conversational AI to which the intended recipient could appeal, negotiating with it to change its course.
I'm obviously not arguing that this is a good idea, but I wouldn't be that surprised if this is the future trajectory (sorry for the pun) of "smart weapons".
Well, as described in the article, the victim was given a sort of appeal by phone: he could make it easier for them to kill just him, rather than murdering his whole family as well.
And you can get a fat payday in court years after the cops dogpile you for a dumb reason. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't bring back the time lost to injury. Doesn't bring back the things that money you pissed into legal fees could've been spent on.
An appeals process isn't a magic uno reverse card that makes a morally reprehensible fact pattern ok. Capricious and/or vibe and/or "Signature based" (vibes with extra steps IMO) application of government violence is reprehensible regardless of the amount of violence applied.
Trying to anchor the discussion around "whole lives" is just lying MBA accounting but for social issues. At the state level life, limb, quality of life and wealth (monetary or otherwise) are all subject to inter related tradeoffs and are somewhat fungible and convertible.
> Experts warn that AI-powered systems could misidentify civilians.
That's obviously not an outcome Israel is overly concerned about.
As long as it misidentifies civilians as potential terrorists, for Israel, it's a feature, not a bug.
“His family described him as a former fighter for the militant Islamist group, but who in his older age had taken an administrative role”
…this sounds like a valid military target. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that, bewilderingly, has declared war on Israel. Whether or not Israel should be mucking around in southern Lebanon is somewhat orthogonal to the validity of an attack on such a man. (And being able to reduce civilian casualties with a phone call is a good thing.)
Given the IDF’s record, I’d assume a more-sympathetic target could be found.
You're led to this conclusion because you have a lack of understanding of the structure of Hezbollah, and a seeming disinterest in understanding it more.
Like it or not, Hezbollah serves a number of functions in Lebanon. They have civil servants (think trash collectors, postal delivery representatives, etc.) They also have politicians.
A corollary would be if the Democratic Party in the United States had a militarized wing, politicians, and civil servants.
It's a structure that those in the West don't recognize or understand, and leads you to the conclusion that anyone killed in the pager attack, for instance, is just terrorist adjacent. So a trash collector who's killed in the pager attack, and their family, are not in fact, 'terrorists'.
Also worth investigating in all of this are the structures and centers of power that are labeling them as a terrorist organization and why.
I don't know so much about Hizballah (though maybe more than the average american), but I do know a bit about Israel and its army.
The late Yeshayahu Leibovitch called certain behaviors "judonazism". And currently this is the mainstream of the Israeli society. Everyone in Israel knows it (though they would try to cast it in different terms), few speak about it, the ones who do get silenced, most simply don't care (who cared in nazi Germany about jews massacred in the woods or starved to death and killed in concentration camps?). The government, the judicial system, and of course the army (just check Haliva's interview on Guardian, and he is, I suspect, "a moderate"..)
nobody should have a gripe against civil services, I want civil services but I'm not going to want them delivered by murderous crime syndicates.
your corollary is what terrifies me. On one hand, it is fascinating to get a glimpse into how it works. On the other, we are next.
This is a fallacious argument. As if it was controversial to say that an organization engaging in lawless violence and terror attacks (imagine if those attacks were against you) doesn't have any moral ground to stand on, even if it does some other things besides that.
It's basically the mafia approach. They are known to help people and stuff sometimes, does it mean we should condone them and protest when they are targeted?
The key people in mafia are also always in "administrative" roles. If you only target the guy pulling the trigger, you would be a fool since he is pretty low among the pawns.
Bullshit. You can’t compare terrorists to the Democratic Party.
ISIS also had trash collectors. Are you saying ISIS should have been left alone?
Would you say the same about a 40 year old suburban USA dad who is a Walmart store manager, who served in the US army for 8 years in his twenties? Is that a "valid military target"? Can Iran drop a bomb on the Walmart that he works in?
> a 40 year old suburban USA dad who is a Walmart store manager, who served in the US army for 8 years in his twenties?
No. But if he’s still on the Army payroll, yes?
You can fact-check me on this if you want but soldiers on leave from active duty are not considered combatants and so are not supposed to be targeted.
There was a comment by an Israeli soldier way back at the start of the Gaza thing that stayed with me but I can't find it now of course. He was commenting on the tactic of bombing residential buildings at night with everyone inside asleep to get one Hamas operative. He said something along the lines "imagine if they came after us when we were at home on vacation" or something like that. I don't believe anyone thinks that's fair, or legitimate, or anything of the sort, it's just something that can be done, so it's done.
The way I understand the article above is that there's not even a clear motive anymore. The AI says "bomb them", so they're bombed, end of.
> No. But if he’s still on the Army payroll, yes?
So anyone who is collecting a military pension is a valid military target when traveling abroad and you’ll have no issues with their murder? Why am I struggling to believe you really believe that.
Like a VA pension?
But you and I both know that we live in a "rules for thee not for me" world.
The outstanding hypocrisy and lies is why they hate us and international law is a joke.
Like with a pension?
>"taken an administrative role"
Not GP, but no... a pension is not similar to an administrative role.
Wait I thought he was a city administrator?
> valid military target
But is it a battlefield situation too? What's the line between "we had no other choice" versus "we could have arrested them and had a trial but murdering them with soldiers is easier"?
For example, suppose a mugger waves a knife at your face, and takes your stuff. Sure, they were "a valid self-defense target"—for thirty seconds—but that can't justify following them home and killing them in their sleep.
This is still very legal in Texas (provided it's at night).
Knowing that you can be killed is a very powerful deterrent for most criminals.
In their sleep in their bed? I don't think that would fly even in Texas.
So anyone who has ever served in the IDF is fair game? Got it
> anyone who has ever served in the IDF is fair game?
Aren’t they? Particularly if they’re still doing work for the IDF or are active reservists.
No, that’s the point, Israel wants their civilians to not be targeted even though many/ most of them have served in the IDF, but they targeted this man.
In some ways, Israel is a military State because everyone (with some minor exception) is required to serve in the military. If everyone is a trained soldier, the only true civilians are the children ...
Actually not true. Most of the ultra orthodox are exempted from service and are a huge source of the support for continued military operations. Because they don’t have to actually put themselves at risk.
It’s been the primary source of netenyahu’s ability to stay in power.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly580gkd9ro
https://www.npr.org/2026/05/12/g-s1-121631/israel-military-u...
the same guy will have a sook about the 'hostages' on Oct 7, many of whom were actually in the IDF lol. Double standards galore with these lot.
Joining armies used to mean something.
When, and what?
That you were prepared to die for that flag.
Until about 50-100 years ago, I’d say that’s when people started fuzzing the realities of death and war.
I'm not sure what you mean. From what I see and conversations I've had with service members, joining the military still absolutely entails awareness (if not quite preparedness) that the person may die for their nation. Are you arguing that people in Hezbollah or the IDF are not aware of this reality?
I’m pointing out that this commenter doesn’t seem to be aware:
> So anyone who has ever served in the IDF is fair game? Got it
Ah, thanks for clarifying. But still, my understanding is that military personal are generally aware of their nationalistic-mortality (for lack of a better term) when they are in active duty, but expect to relinquish that mortality risk after they leave the military.
Has that changed in any way? Maybe I'm naive, but it seems to me that there was always a massive distinction between a service member who is currently serving, regardless of whether it's a combat or hq role, and a veteran.
> Has that changed in any way?
The Internet/OSINT, primarily, if you want an honest answer.
They’re looking for lots of people with security clearances, right now, reportedly…kind of the same thing. Once you’re under the flag, you’re on the board - right, wrong, or indifferent.
[flagged]
There's certainly a good case to be made that Israel basically shaped Hezbollah into its current form as a terrorist organization. It's understandable, but not excusable. There's no excuse for a terrorist organization, on either side of the border.
There seems to be enough excuses for the US congress tho, they weren't that bothered to aid and abet the extermination of Palestinians with bunker buster bombs that wiped out entire bloodlines. Unless you mean that there is no excuse for a "terrorist" organization that is not the ally of the USA.
> There's no excuse for a terrorist organization, on either side of the border.
I disagree; consider Jewish resistance fighters during the holocaust. Should they not have fought back any way they could? Terrorism can be excused when the circumstances are sufficiently dire.
What an upsetting read. This is just how you "breed" more terrorism.
This is terrorism
Have you read the article? Its point is that anyone who has to coordinate with Hezbollah is being called a "terrorist".
The person you are replying to is saying that Israel's conduct is terrorism.
My bad, thanks for pointing that out! That's me misinterpreting the tone of a comment on the internet.
eh? why did you reply to my comment with this one not about my comment?
The person you are replying to is saying that Israel's conduct is terrorism.
weird, didn't really have anything to do with my comment, i figured it was bots/spam.
This is the fate that awaits us all once the machines take over
This fatalism completely absolves the humans that choose to apply these systems
Or the people that aid and support those people. Systems like this, or the Iranian crackdown on protestors earlier this year, show that in our times, an autocratic regime is able to keep power in spite of significant popular resistance. Revolutions like the fall of communism in 1989/1990 seem impossible now. If you lose democracy once, it's over.
Irrelevant
Pretty much, anyone who thinks that they are immune to this is delusional, the same tech is coming after you too.
https://www.hindrajabfoundation.org/donate
So that's where all these RAM, SSD, and graphic cards go!
Is this Palentir related ?
Palantir is best viewed as a React dev shop.
They have a bunch of dumb react components that can become the gui for live targeting systems, but that all happens post contract and in the liability of their customers, the organizations willing to expend human capital coming and going, e.g. militaries
No it isn't. Palantir is Databricks + a bunch of no-code / low-code tools for data visualization and general app development.
Palantir is forward deployed engineers doing whatever their customers need.
Everything else is just marketing and right sizing. For most things yeah, data bricks and no code sounds right. Most of their work is over the counter benign, but that’s to lend credibility to their other initiatives while funding their quite literal war coffers.
>a small village less than three miles from the Israeli border which had turned into a battlefield during Israel’s campaign against Hezbollah in 2024.
Classic New York Times style writing. This sentence should say “Israel attacked this village as part of its invasion of southern Lebanon and Hezbollah defended it”
Imagine if this whitewashing were done to Russia: Karkiv, a small city 10 miles from the Russian boarder which had turned into a battlefield during Russia’s campaign against Zelenski in 2022”
Well, Hezbollah is not defending anything, all they do is shoot rockets and lately fly drones. That's because they don't really have the capability to do anything else, they're a militia up against a fully modernised army and they are forced to fight in an asymmetric manner and so on. One does not simply "defend" territory with irregulars.
I understand that they are in a difficult position for a force that wants to place itself as the legitimate resistance to an invading army, in fact that's the same situation that Hamas finds itself in but with a more obvious occupation (it's not clear to most people that parts of Lebanon are under Israeli occupation, or at least contested).
But what's the end result of fighting? Death and ruin. Nothing else. For Hamas, they had their little "triumph" in October 7 23 and then they lost half of Gaza and the other half is a wasteland. How is that "defending" anything, either the territory or the people? The same thing is happening in Southern Lebanon, and Hezbollah are just as incapable of doing anything to stop the IDF advance as Hamas were in Gaza. They can't defend a thing.
If we are to have any sympathy for the cause, if not the tactics or the ideology, of terrorist resistance groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, we have to also understand that their struggle is hopeless. Violence is clearly not the way for them to win, because the force they are fighting has all the violence. Non-violence is also not an answer because the force they fight has all the violence. They're screwed, quite bad, and there's no way out.
I think it's clear they don't fight to defend anything, just because there's nothing they can do and they might as well go down fighting, or they'll go insane. Or more insane.
I just wanted to clarify the above comment so I'm not misunderstood: no, I have no sympathy for Hezbollah, or their cause. I think they're bloody idiots who have caused untold death and destruction, and now the loss of South Lebanon, for entirely ideological reasons, and for no practical purpose.
You write well and you mean well but what's actually hopeless is trying to use logic with the people who post these kinds of articles and crawl out to comment on them. They're never going to view these conflicts dispassionately, seek out or absorb objective facts or explanations that challenge their preconceptions. They're motivated by an animus toward Israel they nearly all seem to lack toward any other country, they hold Israel to a standard that no other country is actively held to, and yet their worst nightmare is being called antisemites.
Thanks, but I posted the article above.
Also to be even more clear: while I recognise that Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorists I am not on the side of Israel, either. Israel is a militaristic, belligerent nation that seems to have convinced itself that the only answer to all its problems is to be in a constant state of war against all its neighbours. Prime Minister Netanyahu recently compared Israel's future to Sparta; I'm from Athens. And I'm a peacenick and an anti-nationalist on top of that. The ideology promulgated by Israel's ruling class is against everything I stand for, everything my history and my culture has taught me is sane, and reasonable, and productive.
Anyway when two people (or more, as the case may be) are fighting a war, the last thing that those who wish for peace must do is take a side. Taking a side can only encourage the belligerents to fight even more, because now they have supporters for their cause (safely, from a distance, without skin in the game, but supporters). Again, war is against everything I am for, and so I must stand against war and not on the side of anyone fighting a war.
As to being antisemitic or holding Israel to a special standard, we can talk about Iran, and Russia, and the US, and China, and Darfur, and Nigeria, and everything else that's rotten and makes me angry in the world right now if you want, but of course this discussion is about Israel's use of technology in its current campaign in Lebanon.
Sorry to disappoint you.
Its not up to Hezbollah to defend it. Lebanon is not asking Hezbollah to do this.
Israel are stealing land, ethnically cleansing and flattening villages.
Hezbollah, whatever you may think of them, are the main security actor in the South. Why should they not defend their civilian population?
I don't think it's "stealing land" when you have to invade your neighbor to stop rocket attacks on your cities.
Entire villages no longer exist. These are people's homes.
The rocket attacks come because Israel periodically invades, as it is now.
It has murdered UN peacekeepers, journalists, medics, aid workers, and so many civilians. And this is before what it does internally.
It is utterly transparent that land is being grabbed, up to the Litani. Next will come settlers.
There is no justifying this flagrant aggression, nor the countless atrocities Israel has committed in the last few years.
You should be ashamed.
Why did the Lebanese army not defend it then?
Hezbollah at least recently was much stronger than Lebanese army and even nowadays Lebanese army afraid to challenge Hezbollah. Concept of a powerful non state actor is something many people in the west refuse to acknowledge.
It's a country with two power centres and two national armies. Thus, "divide and rule" politics works exceptionally well there and no one should be surprised their lack of political unity is working against them. While the Lebanese army has no love for the Israelis they are acting under US pressure and advise to not get involved as Hezbollah is taking the brunt of the attack, which the US and some Lebanese political actors hope will hope weakens it enough and eventually lead to its merger / absorption. It's an idiotic way to think of, ofcourse, because there is no guarantee that the US and / or Israel are likely to stop the war (or their ethnic cleansing / genocide), or stop making political demands on Lebanon once the Hezbollah is gone. The loss of Hezbollah fighters will mean Lebanon's military actually becomes weaker.
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And I guess the one million Lebanese citizens who just permanently lost their homes just had bad luck...
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> No, the folks up north traded their homes and security for keeping Beirut more or less intact.
Beirut (the parts where Hezbollah has the biggest presence, granted) is bombarded every few days...
> a force that fights no longer for the Lebanese people but entirely for a foreign leader.
This is the standard western/Israeli narrative in that regard. The Lebanese people seem to view that differently.
> though Netanyahu clearly does for personal political reasons.
Israel has to rid itself of Likud.
Netanyahu does lots of stuff for personal reasons, but with regards to the wars, there is little the opposition would do differently.
> Beirut (the parts where Hezbollah has the biggest presence, granted) is bombarded every few days
Not in the way it would be if Lebanon declared war on Israel.
> Lebanese people seem to view that differently
Lebanon is uniquely diverse. The Lebanese I know absolutely see it this way, and with justification. (To be clear, that doesn’t make them peachy towards Israel doing the same.)
> with regards to the wars, there is little the opposition would do differently
Oof, I suspect you’re right. A unilateral course, then: the LAF disarms Hezbollah and then restores the Lebanese state’s monopoly on violence within its borders. Ideally timed to a change in political winds for Tel Aviv in America. Possibly with Turkish or even Saudi support. (Not holding my breath for the EU.)
> A unilateral course, then
No, why?
The problem I see: Even if Lebanon did that, there is still no guarantee that Israel would retreat from the areas in the south they occupied. Or even just that they'd stop with the airstrikes (they didn't stop during the previous ceasefire).
The political climate inside Israel seems to become more fundamentalist and belligerent, not less.
So there has to be an outside force that applies pressure to Israel. The only state able to do that is the US - but the US don't seem to be willing to do it.
Same with the Palestinians. Disarming Hezbollah would - very conveniently - remove one of the few remaining protective forces the Palestinians still have. So what would remain then?
>Not in the way it would be if Lebanon declared war on Israel.
What would declaring a second war even imply? Lebanon and Israel are, and have been in an official state of war since 1948.
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> Israel has no animosity towards Lebanon.
Sure, they just take 10% of the country.
That is because Hezbollah has been firing rockets and anti tank weapons at Israel so they needed to build a buffer zone to protect themselves.
What would you do if you neighboring country was attacking you?
Yeah, Israel’s geopolitical strategy increasingly resembles Russia’s: a preference for weak states on its borders.
Which is odd. Since it should be a maritime/trading power and seek to have rich, stable neighbours.
You say that like it was without any motive. Everyone knows Israel invaded and occupied Palestine starting in 1948.
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Killing 70.000 as revenge for 1200 is not particularly blurry. Neither is ensuring that Palestinians live in perpetual misery.
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Then maybe we shouldn't go out of our way to support one of those sides and provide the overwhelming firepower.
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Good to read that you see it this way.
> There is bipartisan agreement on the first point.
I don't see how this can be true. The last initiatives to stop weapon sales all died in the House (although with shrinking majorities). Meanwhile weapon sales, military and intelligence cooperation and diplomatic protection continue with no change.
By now a majority among the US population has changed their mind on Israel - but the actual decisionmakers haven't and I don't see that they will in the future either.
> And we should pass into law a process, subject to judicial oversight, that bars even weapons sales to countries systematically engaging in war crimes.
This law already exists in form of the Leahy Law. Both Biden and Trump refused to apply the law to Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leahy_Law#The_Leahy_Law_and_Is...
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Are you saying that Israel intentionally targets civilians? As a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, Israel is obligated to protect civilians and civilian populations from all dangers arising from military operations, and Israel is prohibited from direct attacks on civilians. The IDF must distinguish between civilian and military objectives and take all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize incidental loss of civilian life. Civilians lose protected status only if they take a direct part in hostilities.
As someone who has lost family and continues to. Have you not been paying attention to what has happened in Gaza? Conservatively.. Well over 20,000 children killed in Gaza alone. What would you call that?
I also recommend looking into an Ai system developed by the Israeli's called "Where's Daddy". Admittedly used during the the Gaza campaign by IOF themselves.
>Are you saying that Israel intentionally targets civilians?
Yes.
>As a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, Israel is obligated to protect civilians and civilian populations from all dangers arising from military operations, and Israel is prohibited from direct attacks on civilians.
They dont do it.
>The IDF must distinguish between civilian and military
They do this, then pull the trigger anyway.
Come on, dude...
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No idea what this is about but you can't post like this to HN. We ban accounts that attack others, so please don't do anything like that here.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
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> terror attacks on civilian targets
This is a very weird way to frame a highly targeted attack against Hezbollah, which achieved a far better civilian casualty ratio than what's possible with conventional warfare.
You should look up the definition of spectacle. It isn’t necessarily a positive.
Same deal as “awesome”; people often misunderstand its meaning.
> people often misunderstand its meaning
Semantics drift over time. Whether we like it or not, spectacular and awesome both mean something different today than they did 100 years ago. It's hard to argue that "spectacular" doesn't have a positive connotation today.
If I tell you you "made a spectacle of yourself", is that praise?
I'll note only that "spectacle" and "spectacular" are different words and can diverge in meaning, in much the same way as "fantasy" and "fantastic".
I’ll note that “spectacular” regularly describes shitty things.
Like 9/11, by a national news outlet: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/10/september-1...
Would you say that 9/11 was "spectacular" ?
Sure.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/10/september-1...
"These ‘gut-wrenching, scary, spectacular’ photos capture 9/11’s trauma"
https://www.chicagotribune.com/1991/03/10/us-to-iraq-no-pois...
"Given a long, slow flyover of Kuwait City and its environs by his Air Force pilots, Baker saw firsthand the awesome destruction allied and Iraqi forces unleashed on the emirate, sweeping past scores of scorched Iraqi tanks and the hundreds of burning oil wells that blackened large portions of the afternoon sky."
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How is that proof?
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Sounds to me like this is just signature strikes but replacing the analysts with AI.
And to think many would cheer if it were being applied to ends they approve of (enforcing some petty domestic law with fines and bureaucrats instead of taking foreign soil with bombs and soldiers, or whatever).
You can appeal a fine. You can't appeal a missile.
Sorry for taking this on such a weird tangent, but I've been reading the Culture stories and my immediate thinking was - why not? Missiles fly for a relatively long time compared to human decision making, let alone compared to optimized AI agents. There's notechnical barrier to having the missile be controlled by a conversational AI to which the intended recipient could appeal, negotiating with it to change its course.
I'm obviously not arguing that this is a good idea, but I wouldn't be that surprised if this is the future trajectory (sorry for the pun) of "smart weapons".
Well, as described in the article, the victim was given a sort of appeal by phone: he could make it easier for them to kill just him, rather than murdering his whole family as well.
I think part of the effectiveness of such missiles comes from the fact that they're not expected then and there.
this is basically the plot of the end of Dark Star (1975)
And you can get a fat payday in court years after the cops dogpile you for a dumb reason. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't bring back the time lost to injury. Doesn't bring back the things that money you pissed into legal fees could've been spent on.
An appeals process isn't a magic uno reverse card that makes a morally reprehensible fact pattern ok. Capricious and/or vibe and/or "Signature based" (vibes with extra steps IMO) application of government violence is reprehensible regardless of the amount of violence applied.
Trying to anchor the discussion around "whole lives" is just lying MBA accounting but for social issues. At the state level life, limb, quality of life and wealth (monetary or otherwise) are all subject to inter related tradeoffs and are somewhat fungible and convertible.