Let me start by saying that I really like this idea.
Obviously social apps like this are faced with a chicken-and-egg dilemma of how to acquire users. I'm no marketer, so I don't have any suggestions on how to solve this one.
For myself, I avoid non-free/open-source programs in general, but especially chat apps. I think that especially the programs we rely on to communicate should at least be transparent on the client-side. That being said, I would absolutely try this out if the app were released as FOSS (which it doesn't look like it is?).
There's so many ways to fake your location data. There's one way that you can't really fake: Send them a secret code on a piece of paper in the US mail to their physical address. NextDoor used to do this at one point.
At the start, getting users is the first problem. No one is going to bother scamming your app if there is no one there.
Then once people exploit the app, that doesn't mean they wont add value (e.g. contribute positive content). Maybe they are just a high school kid that wants to talk to his friends in his last town?
Once you have users, then there will be other easy signals to detect: Is the person teleporting? Do they hit rate limits freq? Is their GPS location the exact 'center' of the city? Is there GPS a nice pretty number? Does their GPS location never move?
It's hard to fake a reputation score. If someone is providing services in an area, they aren't going to start faking a location, and if they do they won't gain any reputation.
Locally produced food is the important one, going forward. It can be much cheaper living away from a city, yet people still want their services. They want to know where the best place to live is.. even to the nearest mile for walking reasons. They want to know where a doctor is, if the nearest hospital is over an hour's drive away. Also language.. how can digital nomads move about and find same-language speakers.
What's wrong with Google maps for this type of stuff? Is there a competitor with downloadable data? What if a war breaks out in your region or the internet goes out or is inaccessible. Need offline data. What happens if service providers don't trust users enough to want to share their data?
A good idea would be for people to take photos of their local community board and share that, so long as the next Pol Pot doesn't see it as well.
Another interesting use-case will be listings of locally tokenized assets. If I need access to a vacuum cleaner or power tools, who would have those nearby? Who has farm land for my heirloom seeds? Where can I buy dairy from pure, healthy livestock? Tokenized assets I expect to eventually grow in size as inequality becomes more K-shaped. People will start selling off these things to the ones with the gold or at least be more willing to rent their stuff out. People are being increasingly homogenized physically, mentally and financially. Location is one of the last areas of differentiation ... and targeting.
I worked on a location-based app a few years ago and this was the exact validation method we used (after having learned about it from using NextDoor). It’s incredibly slow and tedious though. We abandoned the app for other reasons but I always wondered how one could continued to manage this approach once network effects kick in and the app really starts to grow.
I think it's a neat service layer: and infra layer that attests to people's addresses -- to break it you need to intercept mail, which is a federal offence in most states. So it piggybacks on assurances of states, even while being nonstate.
In an experimental identity system I prototyped as a civic tech project[1], I paired this with scraping a government "voter registration check" form and comparing against, and it was a two-fold guarantee: someone had to either submit false info to the voter registry or intercept mail. In theory it was very cheap to get very high assurances, for only the cost of a postcard API per user
That seems a little excessive for an app like this. The only way I know of that users can fake their location is with a rooted device. I check for rooted devices in the app though so locations can't be spoofed.
Device doesn't have to be rooted to spoof the location.
Also, I hope you're not using Play Integrity (lol), because that means all the old phones you allow can be rooted, hide it from you and/or spoof positive chdck result........ because they're insecure like sieves..... Whilst you'd be banning modern and unrooted phones.
I thought this comment thread was about location spoofing, but if we're talking about abuse on the platform, I do have a "report" button for each chat message. After 2 - 3 reports, the message gets deleted.
Obviously not unhackable and often outdated as people move around, but I always thought phone number area codes were a quick and dirty way to establish or roughly segment people by location.
I don't know how Nextdoor does it, but if you're an entity where establishing physical location is important you can courier letters to pretty much anywhere. (At some multiples higher cost than regular mail service.)
One pattern I’ve noticed with local / geofenced chat is that without a primary task (coordination, trade, alerts, etc.), chat becomes the product... and historically that converges to low-signal or toxicity. The tech here is impressive, but I’d worry the value needs to be anchored to a concrete job-to-be-done rather than chat itself.
I don't quite understand:
Instead of using the phones GPS to let me simply chat with people around me, which would be great during traveling or commute, I need to choose the place I chat at?
This seems super counter productive in my opinion. It creates way more friction that I want.
Maybe I want to save a location I have been to as a chatroom, sure but my primary interest would be to have my location determine the chat. So if I enter a university building: boom university chat.
I enter Cern: boom Cern chat.
The hard part would be to not just use rectangles but actually make the shapes meaningful. I don't want to walk past a high school or live next to one and then be included in that chat. So yeah. Tricky
Good idea - sort of remind me of YikYak. That was really fun & actually a great way to get local tips if you were new into an area with a good community. Towns it was dead, but if I was in a city that I'd never been to before, put a question out and you would get some real good insights.
It faced a fair few controversies & got taken offline and not sure what became of it...
Always wanted something with that... casual fence... to think of a better word again
Very cool. I developed something in a similar vein as a way to teach myself web programming 15 years ago or so. Https://dirtywalls.com is location-based message boards. You can create or join ones close to your location. Reminds me that I need to try to tell people about it since it’s mostly just me checking in to my local bars and shops.
It started with an idea to allow users to connect within polygon geofences anywhere on earth. Getting this system to work on Android with all the backend code takes a lot of time. The system itself loads polygon geofences 180° E and W longitude and 90° N and S latitude. And it uses perimeter-based loading system that crosses the antimeridian, equator and north and south poles.
I also built the entire user-based infrastructure from ground up in Java. That includes account settings, sign up, forgot and reset password, and verification codes with multiple settings.
But the framework itself is still more complex, allowing for very stable long-term Android applications. It includes dynamic configurations parsed from the database on the backend and then used on the backend and Android app via the commons library. Dynamic user messages. A full commons REST framework with REST processing that's in the commons library.
Overall it's a large system. And in fact, I'm getting close to publishing it so that users can build their own 100% Java full-stack Android applications: enterpriseandroidfoundation.com
WTF is wrong with these social apps!?!? Who wants to chat on a tiny screen when they have a computer available. Especially for local apps that function only when you're home.
>WTF is wrong with these social apps!?!? Who wants to chat on a tiny screen when they have a computer available. Especially for local apps that function only when you're home.
I agree with you personally... But at this point it is clear the answer is "everyone". The average consumer is not using a desktop for personal computing daily, just work.
Geo fenced Wikipedia exists already, as a number of apps are available which offer regional maps with localized Wikipedia additions, see for example https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OsmAnd
Twitter started as an internal service for existing Odeo employees, so an unfair comparison if you're talking about cold, starting a social network. Twitter didn't start cold.
Let me start by saying that I really like this idea.
Obviously social apps like this are faced with a chicken-and-egg dilemma of how to acquire users. I'm no marketer, so I don't have any suggestions on how to solve this one.
For myself, I avoid non-free/open-source programs in general, but especially chat apps. I think that especially the programs we rely on to communicate should at least be transparent on the client-side. That being said, I would absolutely try this out if the app were released as FOSS (which it doesn't look like it is?).
There's so many ways to fake your location data. There's one way that you can't really fake: Send them a secret code on a piece of paper in the US mail to their physical address. NextDoor used to do this at one point.
At the start, getting users is the first problem. No one is going to bother scamming your app if there is no one there.
Then once people exploit the app, that doesn't mean they wont add value (e.g. contribute positive content). Maybe they are just a high school kid that wants to talk to his friends in his last town?
Once you have users, then there will be other easy signals to detect: Is the person teleporting? Do they hit rate limits freq? Is their GPS location the exact 'center' of the city? Is there GPS a nice pretty number? Does their GPS location never move?
It's hard to fake a reputation score. If someone is providing services in an area, they aren't going to start faking a location, and if they do they won't gain any reputation.
But location is already baked into many social media apps anyway, though. https://gemini.google.com/share/68d4fd324d94 ...that'd be the real issue here, perhaps.
Locally produced food is the important one, going forward. It can be much cheaper living away from a city, yet people still want their services. They want to know where the best place to live is.. even to the nearest mile for walking reasons. They want to know where a doctor is, if the nearest hospital is over an hour's drive away. Also language.. how can digital nomads move about and find same-language speakers.
What's wrong with Google maps for this type of stuff? Is there a competitor with downloadable data? What if a war breaks out in your region or the internet goes out or is inaccessible. Need offline data. What happens if service providers don't trust users enough to want to share their data?
A good idea would be for people to take photos of their local community board and share that, so long as the next Pol Pot doesn't see it as well.
Another interesting use-case will be listings of locally tokenized assets. If I need access to a vacuum cleaner or power tools, who would have those nearby? Who has farm land for my heirloom seeds? Where can I buy dairy from pure, healthy livestock? Tokenized assets I expect to eventually grow in size as inequality becomes more K-shaped. People will start selling off these things to the ones with the gold or at least be more willing to rent their stuff out. People are being increasingly homogenized physically, mentally and financially. Location is one of the last areas of differentiation ... and targeting.
This is a completely different idea though.
I worked on a location-based app a few years ago and this was the exact validation method we used (after having learned about it from using NextDoor). It’s incredibly slow and tedious though. We abandoned the app for other reasons but I always wondered how one could continued to manage this approach once network effects kick in and the app really starts to grow.
I think it's a neat service layer: and infra layer that attests to people's addresses -- to break it you need to intercept mail, which is a federal offence in most states. So it piggybacks on assurances of states, even while being nonstate.
In an experimental identity system I prototyped as a civic tech project[1], I paired this with scraping a government "voter registration check" form and comparing against, and it was a two-fold guarantee: someone had to either submit false info to the voter registry or intercept mail. In theory it was very cheap to get very high assurances, for only the cost of a postcard API per user
[1]: https://github.com/patcon/id.c4nada.ca?tab=readme-ov-file#ab...
> Send them a secret code on a piece of paper in the US mail to their physical address.
Many people will refuse, on principle, to provide this information to any company, unless perhaps it's for home delivery of some good.
That seems a little excessive for an app like this. The only way I know of that users can fake their location is with a rooted device. I check for rooted devices in the app though so locations can't be spoofed.
Device doesn't have to be rooted to spoof the location.
Also, I hope you're not using Play Integrity (lol), because that means all the old phones you allow can be rooted, hide it from you and/or spoof positive chdck result........ because they're insecure like sieves..... Whilst you'd be banning modern and unrooted phones.
>> I check for rooted devices in the app
Is that possible on iPhone, or only on Android?
So presumably this will be an evil app that reinforces Google monopoly by using Play Integrity?
What else would you suggest for an app with this concept?
Standard AOSP Hardware Attestation.
Play Integrity passes for devices unpatched for several years, which makes it a joke.
Maybe just trust the users, and rely on human moderation to deal with abuse. It's basically how any community works.
I thought this comment thread was about location spoofing, but if we're talking about abuse on the platform, I do have a "report" button for each chat message. After 2 - 3 reports, the message gets deleted.
If that would really be the only option, don't make the app.
If it gets very popular, those who don't want to be tied to Google will be excluded from something important.
And the maker of this app thinks it could have a tremendous impact, so...
Obviously not unhackable and often outdated as people move around, but I always thought phone number area codes were a quick and dirty way to establish or roughly segment people by location.
Most people I know have kept whatever mobile phone number they happened to have when number portability was introduced in late 2003.
How does this work if you don't get mail service at your physical address? (PO box service only)
I don't know how Nextdoor does it, but if you're an entity where establishing physical location is important you can courier letters to pretty much anywhere. (At some multiples higher cost than regular mail service.)
One pattern I’ve noticed with local / geofenced chat is that without a primary task (coordination, trade, alerts, etc.), chat becomes the product... and historically that converges to low-signal or toxicity. The tech here is impressive, but I’d worry the value needs to be anchored to a concrete job-to-be-done rather than chat itself.
I don't quite understand: Instead of using the phones GPS to let me simply chat with people around me, which would be great during traveling or commute, I need to choose the place I chat at?
This seems super counter productive in my opinion. It creates way more friction that I want.
Maybe I want to save a location I have been to as a chatroom, sure but my primary interest would be to have my location determine the chat. So if I enter a university building: boom university chat. I enter Cern: boom Cern chat.
The hard part would be to not just use rectangles but actually make the shapes meaningful. I don't want to walk past a high school or live next to one and then be included in that chat. So yeah. Tricky
Good idea - sort of remind me of YikYak. That was really fun & actually a great way to get local tips if you were new into an area with a good community. Towns it was dead, but if I was in a city that I'd never been to before, put a question out and you would get some real good insights.
It faced a fair few controversies & got taken offline and not sure what became of it...
Always wanted something with that... casual fence... to think of a better word again
Very cool idea. My only worry is "Anonymous Mode". Anonymity IME usually results in conversations descending into vitriol, snark or libel.
Places where you have to use your real name, like Facebook, are typically more toxic
I find the opposite. Anonymity provides a protection from shame that real names don't.
hmm. Facebook is a GD cesspool but 4chan?? Anonymity drives that toxicity!
Very cool. I developed something in a similar vein as a way to teach myself web programming 15 years ago or so. Https://dirtywalls.com is location-based message boards. You can create or join ones close to your location. Reminds me that I need to try to tell people about it since it’s mostly just me checking in to my local bars and shops.
Nice. It's definitely a similar concept, just no geofences.
Checkout Hoplr.com that's a Web based equivalent.
Only for neighborhoods. What if you want to connect with people in a park?
Reminds me of Jodel (https://jodel.com/), an app originally focused on students.
It lost quite some activity in the last decade though, gaining fewer users than it loses.
Jodel seemed to hurt itself badly with unskippable video ads, at least within the local community I am in that used to have a niche group of users.
Similarly, in the US YikYak was also popular at colleges but killed itself by forcing user accounts instead of full anonymity.
Interesting. I've never seen this app before. Ya, still not completely the same concept though. It's using proximity.
I can no longer install Jodel, says my device is not compatible (GrapheneOS on Pixel 9).
I had this exact same idea years ago, it's awesome to see someone else had the same idea, but actually had the guts to do it! Wishing you success!
Why 6 years?
It started with an idea to allow users to connect within polygon geofences anywhere on earth. Getting this system to work on Android with all the backend code takes a lot of time. The system itself loads polygon geofences 180° E and W longitude and 90° N and S latitude. And it uses perimeter-based loading system that crosses the antimeridian, equator and north and south poles.
I also built the entire user-based infrastructure from ground up in Java. That includes account settings, sign up, forgot and reset password, and verification codes with multiple settings.
But the framework itself is still more complex, allowing for very stable long-term Android applications. It includes dynamic configurations parsed from the database on the backend and then used on the backend and Android app via the commons library. Dynamic user messages. A full commons REST framework with REST processing that's in the commons library.
Overall it's a large system. And in fact, I'm getting close to publishing it so that users can build their own 100% Java full-stack Android applications: enterpriseandroidfoundation.com
Relative links that didn't get added in the comment:
- LinkedIn story: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/scl/fi/trobts37gp4gr1qk9ch...
- LocalVideo: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.localvideo...
Not sure why you link to a screenshot of LinkedIn, or to LinkedIn at all, but you might want to spell-check what's written there
Unless you're a masochist you should prototype your idea and see what people want instead of building it first.
Why add new features instead of trying to gain traction?
No web version? No sale.
WTF is wrong with these social apps!?!? Who wants to chat on a tiny screen when they have a computer available. Especially for local apps that function only when you're home.
>WTF is wrong with these social apps!?!? Who wants to chat on a tiny screen when they have a computer available. Especially for local apps that function only when you're home.
I agree with you personally... But at this point it is clear the answer is "everyone". The average consumer is not using a desktop for personal computing daily, just work.
I mean, every phone has a camera built-in and you don't have to worry about drivers or anything like that.
I mean, every browser (worth supporting) can use the device's camera[0] and you don't have to worry about building for every OS or anything like that.
[0]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Media_Captu...
This app (like any consumer social app) needs to first solve the cold start problem: make it useful for a single user, layer the social on top.
Instagram had photo filters; Strava had activity stats. What could this have?
I'm not sure if the concept is really for a single user. It's more like you get to connect with people within geographically-defined perimeters.
One obvious feature would be to provide geo fenced Wikipedia or news feed.
Like what is the highest rated/longest Wikipedia article in the area.
Or maybe what's the 3 top radio stations and a link to them.
There is plenty of local content that Google does not surface
Geo fenced Wikipedia exists already, as a number of apps are available which offer regional maps with localized Wikipedia additions, see for example https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OsmAnd
I could do that. Have additional information about the area based on the perimeter.
These are great ideas!
I am saying for it to succeed as multi-user, it needs to be useful first for a single user.
Twitter was never useful for single users.
Twitter started as an internal service for existing Odeo employees, so an unfair comparison if you're talking about cold, starting a social network. Twitter didn't start cold.
It was. Twitter used to send SMS and therefore notify others on what you're doing even without them having anything installed.