I saw a youtube video of a single mother who job it was to cut out the ice from underneath the ships to create space to do the repairs. Apparently its a very dangerous job because you can easily end up frozen to the river if you're not careful. Must be the same one mentioned in the article.
Interesting choice of tourism destination, but quite cool (no pun intended...) regardless.
One of the most annoying things about working with anything metal at those temperatures, is that your tools will pretty much instantly become stuck to whatever it is you're trying to manipulate, making a propane burner an indispensable addition to your toolbox.
no propane burners. propane freezes solid at minus 60°, and you need heaters to get any flow long before it gets that cold, to the point that you can set propane out in a bucket, which I have some experience with in useing it, to supper cool transmission shafts, so that they shrink, and press fit bearings slip right on.
so yes they have propane, but they use it in other, less well known ways.
Propane does not freeze anywhere near -60C. Wikipedia [1] says it freezes (liquid to solid) below -187C and boils (liquid to gas) above -42C.
Propane is probably unusable as a fuel below -42C because there is no vapor leaving the tank [not within my experience]. That is different from the propane being a solid.
Well, locals called it propane, but I didn't exactly "send it to trace for analysis."
Generally, you (and your toolbox) only spent a few minutes out of every working hour outside. And your toolbox would definitely be room-temperature initially and not cool down to anywhere near ambient temperature while out.
Butane stops vaporizing at -1C (31F), isobutane at about -10C (10F). Propane's boiling point is even better, at about -40C/-40F, but it self-cools and doesn't develop the required pressures to run a torch.
I know this because my otherwise dependable camp stove is a 3-season affair. For winter camping, you basically need a white gas system (liquid fueled, manually pressurized or gravity fed).
I suppose I'd reach for an acetylene torch in a cold workshop.
Ewan McGregor and his friend Charley Boorman was also in the area, 20 odd years ago, when they did a montorbike trip from London to New York, "The Long Way Round" (Crossing Europe, Mongolia, Russia, Canada and USA): https://youtu.be/6kajsHTy3hA
Man, looking at the map it feels like one of the last wild place on earth. I was wondering if this shipyard is on the Arctic Coast, but not really. If it were, it'll be relevant in the near near future. At the moment it's connected by a river to the Arctic Ocean, it's probably booming with business.
It was a neat series, but the start where they whinge about not getting free bikes from their brand of choice was so incredibly entitled and such a turn off.
That's right. I wonder if the decision-makers at KTM regretted that afterwards.
Addendum: Considering that the GS has been a bestseller ever since. It feels like every other motorcycle enthusiast in Germany rides one. It has been the best-selling motorcycle almost every year since then. In Italy, many also seem to prefer riding GS bikes over Guzzi/Ducati/Aprilia.
Similar: During pandemic Ewan and Charlie did an electric bike ride from Argentina to the US and the support crew were in Rivians along with the Rivian CEO or head of engineering or something, as an extended QA run before full production. It was my introduction to the brand and sufficiently impressed me such that I think it’s the only option I’d look at for an EV.
What I remember from that show is that they plug in the Rivian to charge, and 12 hours later the charge level has increased by some miniscule amount. At some point they have to bring in a gas-powered support truck with a gas-powered generator to charge various electric vehicles. If anything, it was a commercial against EVs at the time.
It seems that EVs didn't make much sense in the environment of that trip (going through all of South America, where fast chargers were rare at the time)
They offered KTM a 10 hour advertisement series, which would go on to become a classic for motorcycling enthusiasts worldwide. KTM's response was "eh no you could never pull that off, and will make us look bad". It had nothing to do with the cost of the bikes.
He was coming off the high of being the "star" of the new Star Wars movies. He was a main character in the story but not The main character. I recall watching these on physical DVD via netflix in ~2008 and wondering why he seemed (what we now casually call) entitled; I'd been watching the series for ~3-4 episodes before it clicked with me that he was one of the actors from star wars, despite being a long time star wars fan. He was definitely entitled, the blow up was centered around KTM not being interested in what a Star Wars actor was doing and not taking him seriously. I distinctly recall seeing him cry, or almost cry on camera.
That said, ignoring that drama, the rest of the series was quite good, when they published "The long way Down" from Scotland to South Africa I jumped on that and watched it as well. Someone else pointed out they did an EV thing from Argentina to... Alaska? with Rivian, I might go look at that too.
And it really want's Ewan that was put out about the KTM rejection--he wanted to ride the BMWs, but Charley Boorman was pissed. Charley had dreamed of the KTMs for years.
But given that McGregor has millions in the bank, he could have bought 3 KTMs and not even noticed the cost. Instead, they insisted that they will only ride bikes that someone gives them for free. Because the poor millionaire Hollywood actor "I was in a Star Wars movie!" couldn't possibly pay for his pet project out of his own pocket. Oh how unfair, those evil oppressors at KTM!
Interesting observation and I have to relate - today I've measured ice thickness with classic stainless caliper - -3 celsius was enough for it to immediately glue to ice it was even barely wet.
Working such temperatures must be real hazard to skin, anything metal will glue to it immediately.
Let the metal cool down to the the temperature of the ice and try again. The problem isn’t generally that the ice is sticky per se; the problem is that the surface of the ice will melt if something warm enough touches it and then will freeze again and stick.
Thanks! Digging into your link I found the explanation:
> There's one glitch that occasionally confuses people. When the software lobs a story, it displays a rolled-back timestamp—not the original submission time, but a resubmission time relative to other items on the front page. If you see a timestamp inconsistency on HN, this is probably why. Edit: if this is the kind of detail that interests you, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19774614 for a more recent explanation.
I think it also messes up the timestamps on top level replies? It's super confusing, and sometimes you see a reply that's outdated since there's been new new or discussion since, etc.
HNs system can be hard to figure out. I posted an ~identical article to one that hit #1 on top page a few hours before the other guy. My own posting only got like 8 votes. I have no idea what I did wrong. I think there is some randomness in the beginning; if a couple people notice it in the first 15 or 20 minutes then it stays high enough other people notice it and then it snowballs.
If you have a good post though that gets overlooked someone will commonly "steal" it and use a slightly different article and good chance that one will get traction. Surprised no one thought to do that before you got a second chance.
There is something slightly with the system if people are actually even thinking about posts in terms like this. "The other guy stole my spotlight?" Do people somehow make money from their HN post stats? I guess somehwere some how some people probably do.
I do obvioulsy recognize that at a low level it's fundamental human nature to apply those kinds of game/competition thoughts to literally everything in life, but still it seems like this would be a case where the act of thinking about it consciously enough to write it down, is enough to make one realize it sounds silly.
It seems like human nature that if you attach a number or score to something, people are going to try and get the most they can.
Which is kinda the point. Nobody wants to lose score, so they don't post horrible comments (usually) and they try to find the most interesting articles to post. That's good for everyone. But it does have the side-effect of people complaining that their karma was "stolen".
In my case I was glad someone else got it out because it was in regards to a civil rights leader being imprisoned. I used "steal" in quotes for a reason, but of course, I will admit, I am a lowly ape. When I see other ape get huge points for same action I wonder what I did wrong, even though I happy for other ape, the best simple word I can come up for it is "steal" as lowly ape brain understand and convey this easily.
Brian is much higher ape, free from these low-level ape impulses so long as he writes them out. I hope to be higher ape someday. Ape work harder to get higher thought like Brian.
Skills that aren't present in sufficient quantities for the US military to be able to invade or hold Greenland. (They have a "Space" base 1000 mi from Nuuk but it consists of 150 personnel, a 10000' runway, and facilities for missile detection.) Furthermore, the ~55k Danes and Greenlanders have 15k-20k large caliber rifles that hit out to 800-900 meters out of necessity. People there sell suppressed .30-06 and larger rifles with enormous optics on FB Marketplace for $600-800 equivalent. US invading Greenland would face 1000+ Simo Häyhäs and the dissolution of NATO.
As the ice expands, I think the ship gets lifted upwards slightly. Water freezing and expanding in pipes and enclosed spaces is the real problem. There's several ways to cool a ship engine, I suspect these all use a system where the "radiator" is a hull feature where anti-freeze engine coolant goes through exposed veins in a closed loop to exchange heat with the cold water under.
I once was extremely proud of myself when I had to change a tire without a jack; realizing that I could move the car so the tire was over dirt/sand, brace the car, and dig out underneath the tire.
It's not okay to casually appreciate the vacation pictures of a corrupt Russian oligarch, even if they overlap with an area of technical interest.
Kapersky is part of a corrupt regime that has killed tens of thousands of innocent Ukrainian civilians and murdered leaders of rival political parties. You can get numb to it, but it is a horrible, historic war crime. He is complicit and his boat pictures can go to hell.
Are you implying that OP hypocritically supports Larry Ellison and Elon Musk? Are you implying that not supporting Larry Ellison and Elon Musk by not promoting their media or avoiding their products is absurd? Are you implying that people should hold Larry Ellison and Elon Musk accountable for US actions, but don't, and therefore doing it to other oligarchs is unfair or unreasonable?
I'm OK with anyone expressing their feelings on Kapersky, Ellison, Musk, their boats, and their politics. My guess is that throwaway has similar feelings about all three.
Personally I do feel that we share guilt proportional to our contributions to the ones hurting others; and I'd be interested in the calculus of their respective moral burdens. My tax payments mean I bear 0.0000001 % of the responsibility for US government behavior.
I don't think either of you have made your point very well. "It's not okay to ... appreciate ... pictures..." Isn't nonsensical, but it doesn't really convey the meaning that I'm assuming was intended (so I guess it's incoherent to some degree). That assumed meaning being that it's not okay to support people that support evil regimes. Even if that support is minimal and indirect.
Would you buy an art book by a Nazi officer in 1942? After all, the officer would only receive a very small portion of the proceeds of the book, in reality providing an infinitesimal benefit to the Nazi party itself. Would you recommend said book to people you know? After all, you wouldn't be providing even that tiny amount of material support. And after all, it's simply the creative work of another human, unrelated to the war or atrocities, not representing the interests of the Nazi party itself.
I'm sure that there are plenty of people that will show up to argue that actually, yes, they would gladly buy the book if they liked it and they would recommend it. And some will have the logical devices to show that there are no moral obligations involved. I disagree. Generally speaking, each of us only have tiny levers to pull, and we should pull them.
I saw a youtube video of a single mother who job it was to cut out the ice from underneath the ships to create space to do the repairs. Apparently its a very dangerous job because you can easily end up frozen to the river if you're not careful. Must be the same one mentioned in the article.
youtube.com/watch?v=Lu9P3VaMCho
I'm reminded of the worker in this bit - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U3g-h1rxQw
Absolutely loves her job. Screams a little bit every time she swings the pickaxe below a certain depth though. As one does.
There is a good YT channel I subscribe to from a person in Yakutsk who makes interesting videos on life there:
https://www.youtube.com/@KiunB
Interesting choice of tourism destination, but quite cool (no pun intended...) regardless.
One of the most annoying things about working with anything metal at those temperatures, is that your tools will pretty much instantly become stuck to whatever it is you're trying to manipulate, making a propane burner an indispensable addition to your toolbox.
no propane burners. propane freezes solid at minus 60°, and you need heaters to get any flow long before it gets that cold, to the point that you can set propane out in a bucket, which I have some experience with in useing it, to supper cool transmission shafts, so that they shrink, and press fit bearings slip right on. so yes they have propane, but they use it in other, less well known ways.
Propane freezes long before -60C.
The recent cold snap in the Yukon had smaller tanks useless just past -35c, and bigger ones not doing much past -40c.
We don’t take it on winter adventures for that reason.
I am not understanding this.
Propane does not freeze anywhere near -60C. Wikipedia [1] says it freezes (liquid to solid) below -187C and boils (liquid to gas) above -42C.
Propane is probably unusable as a fuel below -42C because there is no vapor leaving the tank [not within my experience]. That is different from the propane being a solid.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane Melting point −187.7 °C Boiling point −42.25 to −42.04 °C
It freezes as pressure drops when you try to use it from the tank. Like how a can of air duster gets cold when you spray it.
I don’t know that it turns to a solid, but it very much doesn’t work past -35C.
Ask anyone that lives in Yukon/Alaska. They’ll tell you.
Well, locals called it propane, but I didn't exactly "send it to trace for analysis."
Generally, you (and your toolbox) only spent a few minutes out of every working hour outside. And your toolbox would definitely be room-temperature initially and not cool down to anywhere near ambient temperature while out.
No, that's when you use your propane burner burner to heat up your propane burner.
Maybe butane?
Butane stops vaporizing at -1C (31F), isobutane at about -10C (10F). Propane's boiling point is even better, at about -40C/-40F, but it self-cools and doesn't develop the required pressures to run a torch.
I know this because my otherwise dependable camp stove is a 3-season affair. For winter camping, you basically need a white gas system (liquid fueled, manually pressurized or gravity fed).
I suppose I'd reach for an acetylene torch in a cold workshop.
You're right. I misinterpreted my little butane torch's apparent high pressure in relation to my big propane torch.
Canned ethane or ethyne ("acetylene") then.
Ewan McGregor and his friend Charley Boorman was also in the area, 20 odd years ago, when they did a montorbike trip from London to New York, "The Long Way Round" (Crossing Europe, Mongolia, Russia, Canada and USA): https://youtu.be/6kajsHTy3hA
Man, looking at the map it feels like one of the last wild place on earth. I was wondering if this shipyard is on the Arctic Coast, but not really. If it were, it'll be relevant in the near near future. At the moment it's connected by a river to the Arctic Ocean, it's probably booming with business.
> The Long Way Round
It was a neat series, but the start where they whinge about not getting free bikes from their brand of choice was so incredibly entitled and such a turn off.
That's right. I wonder if the decision-makers at KTM regretted that afterwards.
Addendum: Considering that the GS has been a bestseller ever since. It feels like every other motorcycle enthusiast in Germany rides one. It has been the best-selling motorcycle almost every year since then. In Italy, many also seem to prefer riding GS bikes over Guzzi/Ducati/Aprilia.
Oh yeah. It’s very commonly accepted in ADV circles that the GS is THE bike of choice because of long way round.
It could, and probably should have been KTM. The GS is stupidly big and heavy.
Similar: During pandemic Ewan and Charlie did an electric bike ride from Argentina to the US and the support crew were in Rivians along with the Rivian CEO or head of engineering or something, as an extended QA run before full production. It was my introduction to the brand and sufficiently impressed me such that I think it’s the only option I’d look at for an EV.
What I remember from that show is that they plug in the Rivian to charge, and 12 hours later the charge level has increased by some miniscule amount. At some point they have to bring in a gas-powered support truck with a gas-powered generator to charge various electric vehicles. If anything, it was a commercial against EVs at the time.
It seems that EVs didn't make much sense in the environment of that trip (going through all of South America, where fast chargers were rare at the time)
GSes are sort of a meme in the motorcycle communities. And not because of their (perceived) popularity.
I'd bet Honda easily outsells BMW in Europe.
I'd take a GS over KTM though.
> I'd bet Honda easily outsells BMW in Europe.
Probably only if you include motorized two-wheelers with a displacement of <=125cc.
They offered KTM a 10 hour advertisement series, which would go on to become a classic for motorcycling enthusiasts worldwide. KTM's response was "eh no you could never pull that off, and will make us look bad". It had nothing to do with the cost of the bikes.
I don’t think it was entitlement, but enthusiasm about brands (hobbyists tend to get that way).
He was coming off the high of being the "star" of the new Star Wars movies. He was a main character in the story but not The main character. I recall watching these on physical DVD via netflix in ~2008 and wondering why he seemed (what we now casually call) entitled; I'd been watching the series for ~3-4 episodes before it clicked with me that he was one of the actors from star wars, despite being a long time star wars fan. He was definitely entitled, the blow up was centered around KTM not being interested in what a Star Wars actor was doing and not taking him seriously. I distinctly recall seeing him cry, or almost cry on camera.
That said, ignoring that drama, the rest of the series was quite good, when they published "The long way Down" from Scotland to South Africa I jumped on that and watched it as well. Someone else pointed out they did an EV thing from Argentina to... Alaska? with Rivian, I might go look at that too.
And it really want's Ewan that was put out about the KTM rejection--he wanted to ride the BMWs, but Charley Boorman was pissed. Charley had dreamed of the KTMs for years.
You’re probably right. It seems far more likely to be left in of they were trying to show brand enthusiasm.
But given that McGregor has millions in the bank, he could have bought 3 KTMs and not even noticed the cost. Instead, they insisted that they will only ride bikes that someone gives them for free. Because the poor millionaire Hollywood actor "I was in a Star Wars movie!" couldn't possibly pay for his pet project out of his own pocket. Oh how unfair, those evil oppressors at KTM!
Interesting observation and I have to relate - today I've measured ice thickness with classic stainless caliper - -3 celsius was enough for it to immediately glue to ice it was even barely wet.
Working such temperatures must be real hazard to skin, anything metal will glue to it immediately.
Let the metal cool down to the the temperature of the ice and try again. The problem isn’t generally that the ice is sticky per se; the problem is that the surface of the ice will melt if something warm enough touches it and then will freeze again and stick.
Skip the dry dock, just chainsaw the river until it freezes deep enough, peak yakutsk engineering
hahaha.
I don't see the wheels on the boat with wheels - is it the "paddle wheel in the next shot?
Unrelated: is there a delay on HN between submission and publication? I posted that article a few days ago and the header is now "3 hours ago".
Some postings get a second chance if they're considered interesting but didn't get much traction the first time around.
More info: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308
Thanks! Digging into your link I found the explanation:
> There's one glitch that occasionally confuses people. When the software lobs a story, it displays a rolled-back timestamp—not the original submission time, but a resubmission time relative to other items on the front page. If you see a timestamp inconsistency on HN, this is probably why. Edit: if this is the kind of detail that interests you, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19774614 for a more recent explanation.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11662380
I think it also messes up the timestamps on top level replies? It's super confusing, and sometimes you see a reply that's outdated since there's been new new or discussion since, etc.
HNs system can be hard to figure out. I posted an ~identical article to one that hit #1 on top page a few hours before the other guy. My own posting only got like 8 votes. I have no idea what I did wrong. I think there is some randomness in the beginning; if a couple people notice it in the first 15 or 20 minutes then it stays high enough other people notice it and then it snowballs.
If you have a good post though that gets overlooked someone will commonly "steal" it and use a slightly different article and good chance that one will get traction. Surprised no one thought to do that before you got a second chance.
There is something slightly with the system if people are actually even thinking about posts in terms like this. "The other guy stole my spotlight?" Do people somehow make money from their HN post stats? I guess somehwere some how some people probably do.
I do obvioulsy recognize that at a low level it's fundamental human nature to apply those kinds of game/competition thoughts to literally everything in life, but still it seems like this would be a case where the act of thinking about it consciously enough to write it down, is enough to make one realize it sounds silly.
It seems like human nature that if you attach a number or score to something, people are going to try and get the most they can.
Which is kinda the point. Nobody wants to lose score, so they don't post horrible comments (usually) and they try to find the most interesting articles to post. That's good for everyone. But it does have the side-effect of people complaining that their karma was "stolen".
In my case I was glad someone else got it out because it was in regards to a civil rights leader being imprisoned. I used "steal" in quotes for a reason, but of course, I will admit, I am a lowly ape. When I see other ape get huge points for same action I wonder what I did wrong, even though I happy for other ape, the best simple word I can come up for it is "steal" as lowly ape brain understand and convey this easily.
Brian is much higher ape, free from these low-level ape impulses so long as he writes them out. I hope to be higher ape someday. Ape work harder to get higher thought like Brian.
Nailed it.
Diddums
Skills that aren't present in sufficient quantities for the US military to be able to invade or hold Greenland. (They have a "Space" base 1000 mi from Nuuk but it consists of 150 personnel, a 10000' runway, and facilities for missile detection.) Furthermore, the ~55k Danes and Greenlanders have 15k-20k large caliber rifles that hit out to 800-900 meters out of necessity. People there sell suppressed .30-06 and larger rifles with enormous optics on FB Marketplace for $600-800 equivalent. US invading Greenland would face 1000+ Simo Häyhäs and the dissolution of NATO.
How bad is it for a ship's hull to get frozen in ice? Are these ships all reinforced? Are there clever mitigations this "drydock" undertakes?
As the ice expands, I think the ship gets lifted upwards slightly. Water freezing and expanding in pipes and enclosed spaces is the real problem. There's several ways to cool a ship engine, I suspect these all use a system where the "radiator" is a hull feature where anti-freeze engine coolant goes through exposed veins in a closed loop to exchange heat with the cold water under.
So all these ships are immobilized till summer when the ice melts? But winter is the time for repairs etc?
makes sense, doesn't it?
Huh, that actually seems pretty convenient. It's like a subtractive scaffold
I once was extremely proud of myself when I had to change a tire without a jack; realizing that I could move the car so the tire was over dirt/sand, brace the car, and dig out underneath the tire.
The -50 makes it actually easier, because it's you know on top of the river instead on in the river at this point.
That's the crux of it; they aren't.
This looks like real life MineCraft.
It's not okay to casually appreciate the vacation pictures of a corrupt Russian oligarch, even if they overlap with an area of technical interest.
Kapersky is part of a corrupt regime that has killed tens of thousands of innocent Ukrainian civilians and murdered leaders of rival political parties. You can get numb to it, but it is a horrible, historic war crime. He is complicit and his boat pictures can go to hell.
Ooh, are we holding Larry Ellison and Elon Musk accountable for US actions now?
Why not?
Whataboutism.
Are you implying that OP hypocritically supports Larry Ellison and Elon Musk? Are you implying that not supporting Larry Ellison and Elon Musk by not promoting their media or avoiding their products is absurd? Are you implying that people should hold Larry Ellison and Elon Musk accountable for US actions, but don't, and therefore doing it to other oligarchs is unfair or unreasonable?
I'm OK with anyone expressing their feelings on Kapersky, Ellison, Musk, their boats, and their politics. My guess is that throwaway has similar feelings about all three.
Personally I do feel that we share guilt proportional to our contributions to the ones hurting others; and I'd be interested in the calculus of their respective moral burdens. My tax payments mean I bear 0.0000001 % of the responsibility for US government behavior.
> It's not okay to casually appreciate the vacation pictures of a corrupt Russian oligarch
This is totally incoherent and nonsensical. There is no moral case for this and you are making a purely emotional remark.
I don't think either of you have made your point very well. "It's not okay to ... appreciate ... pictures..." Isn't nonsensical, but it doesn't really convey the meaning that I'm assuming was intended (so I guess it's incoherent to some degree). That assumed meaning being that it's not okay to support people that support evil regimes. Even if that support is minimal and indirect.
Would you buy an art book by a Nazi officer in 1942? After all, the officer would only receive a very small portion of the proceeds of the book, in reality providing an infinitesimal benefit to the Nazi party itself. Would you recommend said book to people you know? After all, you wouldn't be providing even that tiny amount of material support. And after all, it's simply the creative work of another human, unrelated to the war or atrocities, not representing the interests of the Nazi party itself.
I'm sure that there are plenty of people that will show up to argue that actually, yes, they would gladly buy the book if they liked it and they would recommend it. And some will have the logical devices to show that there are no moral obligations involved. I disagree. Generally speaking, each of us only have tiny levers to pull, and we should pull them.
I feel like this an interesting angle and I want to approach the discussion in good faith..
So why should it be morally ok to show support/better the public image/engage with a party that is supporting/purporting some huge morally bad things?
My reasoning is as follows, I wonder where you wouldn't agree:
A: You shouldn't support people doing morally bad stuff
B: Someone supporting morally bad things is morally bad
B.2: Sharing/Engaging with them shows support and betters their public image
C: Kaspersky is an oligarch supporting stuff that is morally wrong
D: So you shouldn't support him by driving engagement to his site
Thanks for the story!
The pictures of this technique triggers my submechanophobia - especially the photo of the two people working underneath the ship.
Coming back from warm and cozy Oman Al Hajar mountains and Wahiba crossing, this makes my cry. So beautiful and interesting planet we live on !!