Is it possible that this phenomenon is specific to people with those mental illnesses? A wider general population study resulted in the inverse effect:
I only did a postgraduate degree, so I don't have the practice reading scientific studies to determine which is true. Maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in?
Separately from this study, here's an interesting opinion piece by John Ioannidis titled "The Challenge of Reforming Nutritional Epidemiologic Research", published in JAMA 2018:
> Assuming the meta-analyzed evidence from cohort
> studies represents life span–long causal associations, for
> a baseline life expectancy of 80 years, eating 12 hazelnuts
> daily (1 oz) would prolong life by 12 years (ie, 1 year per
> hazelnut), drinking 3 cups of coffee daily would achieve
> a similar gain of 12 extra years, and eating a single man-
> darin orange daily (80 g) would add 5 years of life. Con-
> versely, consuming 1 egg daily would reduce life expec-
> tancy by 6 years, and eating 2 slices of bacon (30 g) daily
> would shorten life by a decade, an effect worse than
> smoking. Could these results possibly be true?
You're joking, but that's probably the right strategy: make sure to enjoy things on both sides of the aisle, so you don't have to worry about which side adds, and which removes, years. And then don't fret about it.
Aside from that, I'd love to know how each of those items affects life quality. Living long is only a life goal up to a certain age, and from what I've seen around me, that age is very rarely 90.
Yeah, living to old age at the cost of overoptimizing every little thing in your life does not seem like a worthwhile endeavor.
You'll only add years that won't be terribly useful or pleasant anyway, because anyone has to deal with some form of wear and tear regardless. At the very least, all the old people I know have to deal with some audition and sight loss, and even when they are in decent physical shape, they seem to be hurting somewhere.
It feels like trying to be immortal, which is a bit of a folly.
Anyway, the other day I noticed that Warren Buffett is just retiring at the age of 94. The man has eaten McDonald's for breakfast for much of his life. Diet cannot be that big of a deal.
What those epidemiological studies reveal is that food associated with higher class makes you live longer, which is reverse causation, at best.
I would generally recommend ignoring observational nutrition studies like this one. There's just a massive amount of bunk science in that area. Correlations all over the place, very little evidence for causation.
The inverse possibility--that nicotine, and perhaps caffeine as well, heighten the risk of psychosis in those genetially predisposed--has also been considered.
Not diagnosed, but eventually I noticed how veggies gave me psychotic episodes that would last for a few days. Was connected to oxolates seemingly. After one week of probiotics psychosis doesn't happen when I eat veggies now.
Thanks for sharing your experience That sounds really unsettling to go through. I’m glad things have improved for you, but episodes that feel psychotic can be important to look into, since there can be many possible causes, not all of them related to food. If you ever feel comfortable doing so, talking with a medical professional could help make sure nothing else is going on in the background. Everyone’s body is different, and you know your experience best. I just hope you can get clarity and support so things keep moving in a good direction.
Yeah it's an interesting discussion whether schizophrenia causes smoking, or smoking ease schizophrenia, or smoking worsen schizophrenia, or they just often go together for whatever reason (maybe genetics) https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/11/schizophrenia-no-smoki....
No, it affects everybody. Says so in the article. The distinction appears to be that severe mental illness is associated with shortened lifespan so coffee has a more profound anti-aging affect on that population.
Studies of larger populations yield more typical results. Consequently, studies of smaller populations yield more extreme results.
That's not to say that these results might not be significant -- what you propose may be the case -- but I'd want to see an actual mechanism of action before buying something like this.
The study you linked is for instant coffee, widely considered the least healthy form of coffee. There is no study showing filtered coffee has negative health effects for most people, actually the opposite: https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/whats-the-hea...
True, and it could also be what the person has with the coffee. I have a feeling people that drink instant coffee are more likely to add milk, creamer, or sugar.
That said, instant coffee is just freeze-dried coffee. There's a possibility its effect is no different.
I think it’s typically a different species (Coffea canephora). So theoretically drinking bean tea of a different plant could have different health impacts.
As someone formally diagnosed with one of these mental illnesses, I can confidently say that coffee triggers a beneficial reaction to my illness as well as to other health-adjoint mechanisms in my body. To me, drinking coffee is like breathing air or eating food, and to go without it means symptom flare-ups.
It’s not a disorder unless it’s causing problems in your life, definitionally. By that logic people are addicted to any medication they take long term that helps them manage any health condition. Hell, I must be addicted to eye drops because when I don’t use them I get dry eyes more often. Is that addiction/dependence?
We must be careful not to find ways to be judgemental whether intentionally or not, especially when something is non-harmful and helpful to their life. It’s not a good behavioural pattern.
Relief of existing symptoms is one thing, relief of withdrawal symptoms caused by the lack of the substance is another. Stopping use of your eyedrops is not the root cause of your dry eyes. (Cry me a river :) I wouldn't consider that comment judgmental...definitely not as much as talking about people's "behavioral patterns" after reading a single sentence comment anyways)
Nope, wrong again. Lots of important medication such as SSRI’s or cancer medications have withdrawal symptoms too but it would be ridiculous to say they were addicted to them. Withdrawal symptoms are not a good enough indicator of addiction.
Addiction is far more complicated and you’re trying to force a square peg through a round hole.
Also I was obviously talking about behavioural patterns in general, not judging that specific persons behaviours. The fact that you’d take what you’re doing (being judgemental) and try and paint me unsuccessfully as doing the same thing is an extremely bad faith tactic, and reveals to everyone here that you know exactly what you’re doing here.
This isn’t reddit mate. Acting this way is not appreciated.
I never claimed someone's addiction was a disorder causing problems, that was your definition. Obviously prescription medication is a different situation, nothing is so black and white. Get off the high horse "mate", you're reading way too much into what I've said and trying putting words in my mouth to paint me as some judgmental jerk. It's not appreciated.
Coffee's great. In the early morning, just the thought of a large cup of steaming black gets me out of bed with pep in my step. A cup of coffee or two in the afternoon always kicks the doldrums away.
Before the grumpy start making noise, yes, I absolutely am addicted. If I miss two days, then I get a headache for three days. Still definitely worth it. Everybody should drink coffee. There is no good reason not to.
> Everybody should drink coffee. There is no good reason not to.
They absolutely shouldn't. Many people suffer negative side effects from consuming coffee even if they don't realize it, like anxiety and jitters. Consuming stimulants is also a bad idea if you already have high blood pressure or heart rate.
> The analysis found that participants with severe hypertension who drank two or more cups of coffee each day doubled their risk of dying from cardiovascular disease, compared to those who didn't drink coffee. Drinking just one cup of coffee or any amount of green tea – regardless of blood pressure level – did not raise the risk, the study showed.
The claim that some people with high blood pressure may risk cardiovascular harm from coffee is supported, under certain conditions, especially severe hypertension and heavier consumption. This is true.
The more general inference everybody with any high blood pressure or health risk should avoid coffee is not supported by the bulk of epidemiological evidence: moderate coffee use appears at worst neutral for many people, possibly beneficial for some.
A comprehensive meta-analysis of decades' worth of cohort studies concluded that moderate coffee consumption (roughly 2-5 cups/day) was associated with a lower or neutral risk of cardiovascular disease overall (coronary heart disease, stroke, heart failure, CVD mortality) compared to no coffee.
So drink up! Drink all the coffees! Unless you are a reply-guy with severe heart problems and an uncontrollable compulsion to drink mass quantities, then talk to a doctor first.
Also don't drink coffee if you don't like it, or you're a Mormon, a strict Seventh-day Adventist, a member of certain Pentecostal or Anabaptist groups, a Theravāda Buddhist monk, a strict Salafist, or part of a strict Ital-observant Rastafarian community. If in doubt, speak to your bishop, branch president, pastor, priest, imam, monk, or whoever guides your spiritual tradition.
I'm a caffeine/coffee consumer because I like its effects, and the claims to overall physiological benefits appear solid, but why do you think multiple and varied spiritual schools choose to forgo it, especially in coffee form?
I don't think that, when all is considered, there are that many spiritual traditions that forbid it, and there seems to be no unifying principle from the ones that do. Mormons forbid "hot drinks" that are, for historical reasons, interpreted to include coffee. Salafists do it because certain early jurists briefly classified coffee as an intoxicant. Seventh-day Adventists avoid stimulants as part of a broader health code. Theravāda monks avoid anything that affects wakefulness after midday. A few Pentecostal or Anabaptist groups inherited older temperance rules about stimulants. These prohibitions all come from very different origins, and none of them amounts to a shared spiritual insight about coffee itself.
In fact, so few spiritual traditions do forbid it, including the most forbidding and censorious, that it may well be considered miraculous. In my personal religion it is tantamount to a sacrament ;)
Thank you. I'm apparently passionate about it. I can understand not liking the taste, or hating the jitters, or belonging to a religion that discourages it, but as it's one of the very few unambiguously good and healthy joys of this imperfect world, I cannot abide to hear it run down as bad for your health.
> I cannot abide to hear it run down as bad for your health.
I didn't say it was bad for health as a general statement, I said that there are many people out there who suffer negative health consequences from caffeine consumption, in response to you telling everyone to drink coffee.
I actually like coffee, I have a fancy hand grinder and everything, my body just doesn't handle it well when consumed on a regular basis and I know people who've had to quit because it made their anxiety so bad that they started getting panic attacks. Telling "everyone" to drink coffee because there's no good reason not to is just wrong and careless and potentially dangerous.
Hmm, sorta similar for me except my normal is only one cup per day. Every now and than (say every few months), I get up to two, then soon three cups per day and I start getting migraine. Then I think to myslf, "boy, I gotta quit coffee forever", and so I do. Then I get headaches from withdrawal, but that only lasts a few days. Typically, I stay off coffee forever for about two or three weeks, and the cycle repeats.
So... if you want to cut back, just persevere for a few days of no coffee. The statistics don't lie.*
Is it the coffee or caffeine in coffee? Do you feel the same benefits if you have decaffeinated coffee? Can you replace it with just caffeine pills to get same effect?
I have not tried caffeine pills myself, but I have found caffeine in general to be slightly beneficial, but with coffee having the most pronounced effect on my symptoms.
Likely an effect of MAO inhibitors in coffee. Caffeine itself is also a MAO inhibitor (in addition to its primary effect of adenosine receptor antagonism), but there are dozens of others in the brew.
I’m rightfully dubious of studies like this. Too many variables. They stated what they controlled for, but it wasn’t all that much, and doesn’t have any clue at all mechanism. For all we know it could be that people who drink coffee are less stressed and it’s stress that ages you. Or people who drink coffee work outside less. Or own more frogs. I dunno.
Just annoyed that studies like this get so much attention compared to studies that provide more value.
Since PCs became strong enough to analyse a few thousand rows of a spreadsheet, a lot of such observational (meta) analyses popped up linking an arbitrary environmental factor with a catchy target (death or well being). With such, they imply but never admit someone could hack his whole health status with a simple intervention, which obviously is not valid for any random subject. Such studies I categorise in click baity science, as they profoundly seek public attention.
The study doesn't seem to try to distinguish cause and effect. It may be that people who feel better are more likely to go for coffee. That issue comes up quite often in alcohol studies - if you plot alcohol consumption against health the people who drink quite a lot are amongst the healthiest but the effect there is pretty much that drinking is fun but you have to be healthy to take it.
It just tends to come out that way. Not the very healthiest but in my case for example I drank quite a lot in my 20s/30s when I was fit. Now I can't drink much and am not in as good a health (60s).
I wonder if what seems like much higher margins in coffee allow for more articles like this. While I want what they are saying to be true, I wish I did not have to pay $15.00 for a 26 ounce can of coffee.
The cost of raw coffee has nearly tripled in 18 months, that's what's driven the price increases. That has not been due to the cost of processing and shipping so much as poor coffee growing seasons in major growing areas reducing primary production. Though growing, processing, and transport inputs have all suffered a lot of inflation in the past 5 years too, to be sure.
FYI I researched this a bit. Most coffee is hand-picked, with Brazil (featured in the video), being the exception.
Brazil is generally known for mass production low quality coffee grown at a lower altitude, which might be what you find in a can like grandparent said, but is less popular in the more premium scenes.
Coffee, the brew, is not a significant source of Quercetin. The grounds, the part you throw away, may be. But capers are like ~200mg per 100g, and outpaces all the other common sources of it, so if you were really big on Quercetin, you'd be looking at anything but coffee.
Do you like sweets? I noticed as I became an adult sometime in my mid-20s, I stopped liking sweet flavors as much and developed a new appreciation for bitter flavors. Like coffee and some vegetables.
My tastes changed a lot over the years. I quit liking sweets in my early 20s, I rarely even have sugar in the house.
Sometime in my late 30s I started appreciating more nuanced flavors, including black coffee, but mostly vegetables like green beans, tomatoes, asparagus, peas, carrots. Once that happened, I started realizing how much food is blasted with so much salt that obliterates said flavors.
I assume it's mostly normal, as a kid I found my parents tastes bland...ew who could eat vegetables by themselves with no seasoning? Well, me now apparently...
There was a time when my diet was consistently full of very sweet things -- in particular, with beverages: More soda? Another mocha latte swimming in sugar? Another quart of orange juice? Yes, please.
But also food: How can a person walk past a selection of fresh donuts without having one?
Eventually, for reasons that initially were budgetary more than anything else, I discovered some coffee that I really liked the natural flavor of at a local place. I started getting that -- plain, black -- instead of a latte, mostly because $2.10 is a lot less than $3.75.
That coffee was Ethiopian Yirgacheffe. This particular one had its own distinct, subtle sweetness that hit the spot for me and was part of a basically-daily feel-good routine for years until their roaster stopped selling it.
But by then, I was a black coffee convert. And I didn't even notice at the time, but I'd also stopped buying soda in bulk -- it became a rare entity in my life instead of a daily fixation.
I also stopped buying things like cookies and donuts. I began to skip the pie at gatherings.
That all happened in my 30s.
Nowadays, motivated only by what I feel like eating or drinking instead of some desire to make healthy choices or something, my intake is good-tasting spring water (the tap water here sometimes tastes of mud), decent black coffee, inexpensive tea, and [of course] beer.
My food has taken a turn for the bland, too.
I buy carrots and celery at the store to munch on, instead of a bag of cookies. Things like rice and beans and fish have an abundance of flavor that I wasn't able to appreciate before. For gatherings, I make a big relish tray full of fresh vegetables -- and I munch on them more than anyone else does.
I seldom buy breakfast cereal now, but I used to eat a lot of it -- and I'd load it up with more sugar. Last year I did buy some store-brand raisin bran but I found that it was too much of a sugar bomb to really enjoy as a meal. I couldn't make myself finish it; most of it wound up in the compost. (I did find some very plain bran flakes that I liked a lot better -- 12-year-old me would not have been impressed.)
This is all a bit weird to describe because the only deliberate decision involved was to try to save a bit of money on coffee-house coffee in my 30s.
But did that decision actually have anything to do with it? Or is this instead a tale as old as time itself, wherein: Tastes simply change?
(But yeah, I do enjoy an occasional sugar bomb. But only literally-occasionally. For instance: A single 12-ounce bottle of Coke is very nice sometimes. I probably drink as many as 2 or 3 of those in a whole year.)
My own take. The point is that the link may be the other way around. The population of people who tend to drink coffee might age slower. Perhaps due to some third variable like wealth or race. Correlation is not causation.
Is it possible that the coffee drinkers have more social interaction with the barista and others? It's unclear from the paper if they eliminated the confounding factors around coffee drinking.
What other social interactions are needed more than: "One flat white to go, please", and "Thank you"? Asking genuinely, because I don't know what else I can say.
I usually make coffee at home, but the baristas are remarkably stable in my area. When I do go to a coffee shop (there are 2-3 that I might go to) there’s a good chance I’ll recognize the barista and that they’ll also remember me. In one such case I’ve been seeing the same one for close to a decade, and we always chat for a bit.
I think most baristas who do it for more than a year or two learn to not primarily be a coffee factory but first to make a positive impact on the people they see. The coffee is something that can be made consistent (and in a way, boring) through practice, but personal connection, especially when it is genuine, has a real draw.
Lots of things. “Could I have some sugar, please; two frappy mochachos? one with almond milk; can you explain what all these options are, please; what the hell is mushroom powder?” In today’s coffee shops this can lead to hours of complex social interaction at the counter, enriching our lives and ultimately extending our lifespans. — sorry, couldn’t resist. In seriousness, I actually find this conversation interesting. Some coffee shops do have quite a social culture around them, though I think they’re outliers on whole. Here in Spain it’s a mix, but in some it is like everyone’s friends with the barista.
yup it's true, and as some point out, consumption in the early morning, when we all get a proinflammatory, normal response, is perfect timing for the antioxidant flood of coffee to counteract it all.
The rest of the day is another story, every day! Hopefully one of the better stories.
That was my routine for a few years to ward off huntington’s disease. I don’t think the science panned out for blueberries and huntington’s, but in the mean time I got old enough to realize I didn’t have the genes for it (yes I was too cowardly to be tested)
Do you add whole milk to coffee? The casein and fat should help to reduce acidity and make it easier on the stomach.
If you can't do that, I've heard of people adding a sprinkle of baking soda as a buffer to black coffee. I'm not sure how much you'd need, probably just a tiny amount that you'd barely be able to taste.
This is typically true of coffee produced at scale. Large batches are often overcooked, chemically cooled and then left longer on the shelf. The result of these things is increased acidity. I have found that I can tolerate the small-batch locally-roasted stuff much better. If you want to give it a go, find a local coffee roaster (often it’s just coffee shop that roasts their own). You’ll know it has a chance of being good if the bag has a “roasted on” date within the last week or two. Discard anything you haven’t used up before 90 days.
I cut coffee for a year or so 10 years ago due to stomach issues, then slowly added fancy espresso drinks back, figuring that if I was only having coffee once a week, it might as well be fancy. I don’t seem to have stomach issues now with 1-2 lattes/cappuccinos a day.
Maybe it’s unrelated, all in my head, better beans, or the 3-4 oz of whole milk, but maybe give espresso drinks a try if you haven’t?
It’s likely a better roasting process and fresher beans. Large scale coffee roasters produce burnt, more acidic beans with chemicals added during the process.
I've been self-medicating ADHD with multiple cups of coffee a day since I was 17. I'm in my early 30s now, and after getting on Vyvanse, have reduced then given up coffee. I realised that coffee was the reason for my anxiety which builds up towards the end of the day.
I reduced my coffee down to 1 espresso per day two months ago, and quit entirely two weeks ago. I'm still on stimulants, but Vyvanse treats ADHD much better and has fewer side-effects.
Same here, my afternoon anxiety from daily coffee consumption (1-2 cups typically) got really bad on some days. I was heavily addicted to coffee and nicotine for years but I managed to quit both of those after realizing that they weren't doing me any favors. I continued to have cravings until I got on ADHD medication then they practically disappeared overnight and never came back.
I think more people should give green or black tea a try, I found them to provide similar effects to coffee but with fewer side effects.
Over the NHS recommended limit is better than zero caffeine for everyone. If their limit is correct is in question
Whether "those with severe mental illness" get more benefit seems unlikely biologically. But like everyone coffee is good for you.
The only point of research like this, since we know coffee is good, is finding the mechanisms. But it's highly open to p-hacking/experimental error, which is how universities work now. You should default to this is citation farming.
It is a critique, not a summary. If you think it stops being one, point out where.
I don’t take articles at face value, especially when it comes to science reporting. Journalists often overstate or oversimplify studies, so I read the actual paper. I highlighted what it really says, what it doesn’t say, and what the article adds that isn’t in the study at all.
If an article misrepresents a paper’s core ideas, why shouldn’t that be called out? Misreporting confuses readers and undermines the authors’ work by failing to represent it accurately.
Is it possible that this phenomenon is specific to people with those mental illnesses? A wider general population study resulted in the inverse effect:
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/15/6/1354
I only did a postgraduate degree, so I don't have the practice reading scientific studies to determine which is true. Maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in?
Separately from this study, here's an interesting opinion piece by John Ioannidis titled "The Challenge of Reforming Nutritional Epidemiologic Research", published in JAMA 2018:
https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/wp-content/uploads/20...
via Andrew Gelman's blog: https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/01/26/article-po...Good thing I drink hazelnut coffee while eating eggs and bacon! It cancels out right?
You're joking, but that's probably the right strategy: make sure to enjoy things on both sides of the aisle, so you don't have to worry about which side adds, and which removes, years. And then don't fret about it.
Aside from that, I'd love to know how each of those items affects life quality. Living long is only a life goal up to a certain age, and from what I've seen around me, that age is very rarely 90.
Yeah, living to old age at the cost of overoptimizing every little thing in your life does not seem like a worthwhile endeavor. You'll only add years that won't be terribly useful or pleasant anyway, because anyone has to deal with some form of wear and tear regardless. At the very least, all the old people I know have to deal with some audition and sight loss, and even when they are in decent physical shape, they seem to be hurting somewhere.
It feels like trying to be immortal, which is a bit of a folly.
Anyway, the other day I noticed that Warren Buffett is just retiring at the age of 94. The man has eaten McDonald's for breakfast for much of his life. Diet cannot be that big of a deal.
What those epidemiological studies reveal is that food associated with higher class makes you live longer, which is reverse causation, at best.
I assume these needs to be indications on overall diet.
Edit: i.e a bacon eater consumes a higher than average caloric intake, hazelnut eaters have more greens/vegetables in their diet possibly
these things are 100% true. I eat one hazelnut per hour and have lived already 230 years.
also this explains squirrels
I would generally recommend ignoring observational nutrition studies like this one. There's just a massive amount of bunk science in that area. Correlations all over the place, very little evidence for causation.
Data point: my nutrition coach says I can eat up to 18 eggs a week no problem. She recommends two per day.
It's well-known that schizophrenics self-medicate with coffee and nicotine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia_and_tobacco_smok...
The inverse possibility--that nicotine, and perhaps caffeine as well, heighten the risk of psychosis in those genetially predisposed--has also been considered.
Not diagnosed, but eventually I noticed how veggies gave me psychotic episodes that would last for a few days. Was connected to oxolates seemingly. After one week of probiotics psychosis doesn't happen when I eat veggies now.
Incidentally caffeine calms me down as well.
Thanks for sharing your experience That sounds really unsettling to go through. I’m glad things have improved for you, but episodes that feel psychotic can be important to look into, since there can be many possible causes, not all of them related to food. If you ever feel comfortable doing so, talking with a medical professional could help make sure nothing else is going on in the background. Everyone’s body is different, and you know your experience best. I just hope you can get clarity and support so things keep moving in a good direction.
Could you share your probiotic regime please? What worked for you?
Yeah it's an interesting discussion whether schizophrenia causes smoking, or smoking ease schizophrenia, or smoking worsen schizophrenia, or they just often go together for whatever reason (maybe genetics) https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/11/schizophrenia-no-smoki....
No, it affects everybody. Says so in the article. The distinction appears to be that severe mental illness is associated with shortened lifespan so coffee has a more profound anti-aging affect on that population.
Interesting. I wonder if that extends to any stimulant, or if it's something particular with caffeine and coffee.
With that said, the fact that the other study seemed to find the opposite conclusion concerns me.
What other studies?
Studies of larger populations yield more typical results. Consequently, studies of smaller populations yield more extreme results.
That's not to say that these results might not be significant -- what you propose may be the case -- but I'd want to see an actual mechanism of action before buying something like this.
The study you linked is for instant coffee, widely considered the least healthy form of coffee. There is no study showing filtered coffee has negative health effects for most people, actually the opposite: https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/whats-the-hea...
> I only did a postgraduate degree
This confuses me. Aren't all the best degrees postgraduate degrees?
Idk about the op study, but I could imagine confounders with instant coffee consumption.
True, and it could also be what the person has with the coffee. I have a feeling people that drink instant coffee are more likely to add milk, creamer, or sugar.
That said, instant coffee is just freeze-dried coffee. There's a possibility its effect is no different.
I think it’s typically a different species (Coffea canephora). So theoretically drinking bean tea of a different plant could have different health impacts.
Also known as Robusta. I have two different instant coffees at home and just checked - one is robusta, one arabica.
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Research doesn't show that dietary acids affect body pH that much.
There's massive buffer systems in the body.
Source? There are many sources that show that pH in urine and saliva increases when people drink alkaline water.
Of course urine would, its the result of kidneys eliminating the acid brought to them by the plasma buffer system. But blood and body Ph don't change.
The body is incredibly complex so I'm not saying this is conclusive but here's a source plus a lot of explanation with numerous experiments.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3828631/
Another thing: Calcium strongly associates with acid.
And there's no evidence of osteoporosis or bone leaching with high acid diets.
Yep, homeostasis
As someone formally diagnosed with one of these mental illnesses, I can confidently say that coffee triggers a beneficial reaction to my illness as well as to other health-adjoint mechanisms in my body. To me, drinking coffee is like breathing air or eating food, and to go without it means symptom flare-ups.
Sounds more like dependence/addiction to me
It’s not a disorder unless it’s causing problems in your life, definitionally. By that logic people are addicted to any medication they take long term that helps them manage any health condition. Hell, I must be addicted to eye drops because when I don’t use them I get dry eyes more often. Is that addiction/dependence?
We must be careful not to find ways to be judgemental whether intentionally or not, especially when something is non-harmful and helpful to their life. It’s not a good behavioural pattern.
Relief of existing symptoms is one thing, relief of withdrawal symptoms caused by the lack of the substance is another. Stopping use of your eyedrops is not the root cause of your dry eyes. (Cry me a river :) I wouldn't consider that comment judgmental...definitely not as much as talking about people's "behavioral patterns" after reading a single sentence comment anyways)
Nope, wrong again. Lots of important medication such as SSRI’s or cancer medications have withdrawal symptoms too but it would be ridiculous to say they were addicted to them. Withdrawal symptoms are not a good enough indicator of addiction. Addiction is far more complicated and you’re trying to force a square peg through a round hole.
Also I was obviously talking about behavioural patterns in general, not judging that specific persons behaviours. The fact that you’d take what you’re doing (being judgemental) and try and paint me unsuccessfully as doing the same thing is an extremely bad faith tactic, and reveals to everyone here that you know exactly what you’re doing here.
This isn’t reddit mate. Acting this way is not appreciated.
I never claimed someone's addiction was a disorder causing problems, that was your definition. Obviously prescription medication is a different situation, nothing is so black and white. Get off the high horse "mate", you're reading way too much into what I've said and trying putting words in my mouth to paint me as some judgmental jerk. It's not appreciated.
100% but people hate to admit it.
I think what people hate to admit even less is that being judgmental like you are doing gives people a small power trip.
Coffee's great. In the early morning, just the thought of a large cup of steaming black gets me out of bed with pep in my step. A cup of coffee or two in the afternoon always kicks the doldrums away.
Before the grumpy start making noise, yes, I absolutely am addicted. If I miss two days, then I get a headache for three days. Still definitely worth it. Everybody should drink coffee. There is no good reason not to.
> Everybody should drink coffee. There is no good reason not to.
They absolutely shouldn't. Many people suffer negative side effects from consuming coffee even if they don't realize it, like anxiety and jitters. Consuming stimulants is also a bad idea if you already have high blood pressure or heart rate.
> The analysis found that participants with severe hypertension who drank two or more cups of coffee each day doubled their risk of dying from cardiovascular disease, compared to those who didn't drink coffee. Drinking just one cup of coffee or any amount of green tea – regardless of blood pressure level – did not raise the risk, the study showed.
https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/12/21/people-with-very-hi...
The claim that some people with high blood pressure may risk cardiovascular harm from coffee is supported, under certain conditions, especially severe hypertension and heavier consumption. This is true.
The more general inference everybody with any high blood pressure or health risk should avoid coffee is not supported by the bulk of epidemiological evidence: moderate coffee use appears at worst neutral for many people, possibly beneficial for some.
A comprehensive meta-analysis of decades' worth of cohort studies concluded that moderate coffee consumption (roughly 2-5 cups/day) was associated with a lower or neutral risk of cardiovascular disease overall (coronary heart disease, stroke, heart failure, CVD mortality) compared to no coffee.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3945962/
So drink up! Drink all the coffees! Unless you are a reply-guy with severe heart problems and an uncontrollable compulsion to drink mass quantities, then talk to a doctor first.
Also don't drink coffee if you don't like it, or you're a Mormon, a strict Seventh-day Adventist, a member of certain Pentecostal or Anabaptist groups, a Theravāda Buddhist monk, a strict Salafist, or part of a strict Ital-observant Rastafarian community. If in doubt, speak to your bishop, branch president, pastor, priest, imam, monk, or whoever guides your spiritual tradition.
While that study is interesting, I was responding to:
> Everybody should drink coffee. There is no good reason not to.
Clearly there are many reasons not to drink coffee that may or may not apply to you and so saying that everyone should be drinking coffee is wrong.
I'm a caffeine/coffee consumer because I like its effects, and the claims to overall physiological benefits appear solid, but why do you think multiple and varied spiritual schools choose to forgo it, especially in coffee form?
I don't think that, when all is considered, there are that many spiritual traditions that forbid it, and there seems to be no unifying principle from the ones that do. Mormons forbid "hot drinks" that are, for historical reasons, interpreted to include coffee. Salafists do it because certain early jurists briefly classified coffee as an intoxicant. Seventh-day Adventists avoid stimulants as part of a broader health code. Theravāda monks avoid anything that affects wakefulness after midday. A few Pentecostal or Anabaptist groups inherited older temperance rules about stimulants. These prohibitions all come from very different origins, and none of them amounts to a shared spiritual insight about coffee itself.
In fact, so few spiritual traditions do forbid it, including the most forbidding and censorious, that it may well be considered miraculous. In my personal religion it is tantamount to a sacrament ;)
Absolute slam dunk of a comment, well said!
Thank you. I'm apparently passionate about it. I can understand not liking the taste, or hating the jitters, or belonging to a religion that discourages it, but as it's one of the very few unambiguously good and healthy joys of this imperfect world, I cannot abide to hear it run down as bad for your health.
> I cannot abide to hear it run down as bad for your health.
I didn't say it was bad for health as a general statement, I said that there are many people out there who suffer negative health consequences from caffeine consumption, in response to you telling everyone to drink coffee.
I actually like coffee, I have a fancy hand grinder and everything, my body just doesn't handle it well when consumed on a regular basis and I know people who've had to quit because it made their anxiety so bad that they started getting panic attacks. Telling "everyone" to drink coffee because there's no good reason not to is just wrong and careless and potentially dangerous.
"Not everyone should" != "nobody should"
You’re picking at hairs. “Everyone” was being used colloquially by them, not literally.
Fine. Everyone should do pure pharmaceutical-grade [cocaine, opioids, cannabis, nicotine], there's no good reason not to, in moderation.
Hmm, sorta similar for me except my normal is only one cup per day. Every now and than (say every few months), I get up to two, then soon three cups per day and I start getting migraine. Then I think to myslf, "boy, I gotta quit coffee forever", and so I do. Then I get headaches from withdrawal, but that only lasts a few days. Typically, I stay off coffee forever for about two or three weeks, and the cycle repeats.
So... if you want to cut back, just persevere for a few days of no coffee. The statistics don't lie.*
* sample size = 1
My experience is that cold turkey is just the pits. Tapering off can eliminate side-effects and iirc is recommended by health professionals.
Is it the coffee or caffeine in coffee? Do you feel the same benefits if you have decaffeinated coffee? Can you replace it with just caffeine pills to get same effect?
I have not tried caffeine pills myself, but I have found caffeine in general to be slightly beneficial, but with coffee having the most pronounced effect on my symptoms.
Likely an effect of MAO inhibitors in coffee. Caffeine itself is also a MAO inhibitor (in addition to its primary effect of adenosine receptor antagonism), but there are dozens of others in the brew.
I’m rightfully dubious of studies like this. Too many variables. They stated what they controlled for, but it wasn’t all that much, and doesn’t have any clue at all mechanism. For all we know it could be that people who drink coffee are less stressed and it’s stress that ages you. Or people who drink coffee work outside less. Or own more frogs. I dunno.
Just annoyed that studies like this get so much attention compared to studies that provide more value.
My complete layman’s theory is because it acts as an appetite suppressant and calories consumed is a strong indicator of cell turnover and aging.
My theory is that people with more severe mental illnesses are less likely to have their lives together enough to make coffee multiple times per day
Since PCs became strong enough to analyse a few thousand rows of a spreadsheet, a lot of such observational (meta) analyses popped up linking an arbitrary environmental factor with a catchy target (death or well being). With such, they imply but never admit someone could hack his whole health status with a simple intervention, which obviously is not valid for any random subject. Such studies I categorise in click baity science, as they profoundly seek public attention.
Direct link to study: https://mentalhealth.bmj.com/content/28/1/e301700
The study doesn't seem to try to distinguish cause and effect. It may be that people who feel better are more likely to go for coffee. That issue comes up quite often in alcohol studies - if you plot alcohol consumption against health the people who drink quite a lot are amongst the healthiest but the effect there is pretty much that drinking is fun but you have to be healthy to take it.
Sure but wont alcohole have a more obvious "I don't feel well maybe I should not drink too much" effect?
And care takers when you are really bad will hand you coffee but not beer. Etc.
What do you mean people that drink a lot are the healthiest.
It just tends to come out that way. Not the very healthiest but in my case for example I drank quite a lot in my 20s/30s when I was fit. Now I can't drink much and am not in as good a health (60s).
That title smells of p-hacking
No, that was stale robusta
I wonder if what seems like much higher margins in coffee allow for more articles like this. While I want what they are saying to be true, I wish I did not have to pay $15.00 for a 26 ounce can of coffee.
$10/lb sounds very reasonable for a grown, hand picked, fermented, washed, dried, shipped, roasted, packaged, and delivered seed.
Coffee is not really hand picked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCOMM84jhZg
The cost of raw coffee has nearly tripled in 18 months, that's what's driven the price increases. That has not been due to the cost of processing and shipping so much as poor coffee growing seasons in major growing areas reducing primary production. Though growing, processing, and transport inputs have all suffered a lot of inflation in the past 5 years too, to be sure.
FYI I researched this a bit. Most coffee is hand-picked, with Brazil (featured in the video), being the exception.
Brazil is generally known for mass production low quality coffee grown at a lower altitude, which might be what you find in a can like grandparent said, but is less popular in the more premium scenes.
This is not expensive. In my part of the world I'm paying $15-20 for 250 g (9 oz).
Arguably one of you just has better taste in coffee, especially at ~$10/lb
Should people be unequally denied caffeinenated coffee on the basis of medical status as determined by a physician they must pay?
What about decaf only; 0.3% coffee?
Is decaf linked to slower biological aging, too?
Coffee contains a bunch of healthy compounds. Quercetin for one. A bunch of other flavonoids.
Coffee, the brew, is not a significant source of Quercetin. The grounds, the part you throw away, may be. But capers are like ~200mg per 100g, and outpaces all the other common sources of it, so if you were really big on Quercetin, you'd be looking at anything but coffee.
I do. I use Quercetin as my source of Quercetin.
Without any documentation of actual caffeine consumption this study is completely worthless.
how could it be worthless when it inspired such a valuable comment
Liking coffee linked to ...
Do you like sweets? I noticed as I became an adult sometime in my mid-20s, I stopped liking sweet flavors as much and developed a new appreciation for bitter flavors. Like coffee and some vegetables.
My tastes changed a lot over the years. I quit liking sweets in my early 20s, I rarely even have sugar in the house.
Sometime in my late 30s I started appreciating more nuanced flavors, including black coffee, but mostly vegetables like green beans, tomatoes, asparagus, peas, carrots. Once that happened, I started realizing how much food is blasted with so much salt that obliterates said flavors.
I assume it's mostly normal, as a kid I found my parents tastes bland...ew who could eat vegetables by themselves with no seasoning? Well, me now apparently...
Same.
There was a time when my diet was consistently full of very sweet things -- in particular, with beverages: More soda? Another mocha latte swimming in sugar? Another quart of orange juice? Yes, please.
But also food: How can a person walk past a selection of fresh donuts without having one?
Eventually, for reasons that initially were budgetary more than anything else, I discovered some coffee that I really liked the natural flavor of at a local place. I started getting that -- plain, black -- instead of a latte, mostly because $2.10 is a lot less than $3.75.
That coffee was Ethiopian Yirgacheffe. This particular one had its own distinct, subtle sweetness that hit the spot for me and was part of a basically-daily feel-good routine for years until their roaster stopped selling it.
But by then, I was a black coffee convert. And I didn't even notice at the time, but I'd also stopped buying soda in bulk -- it became a rare entity in my life instead of a daily fixation.
I also stopped buying things like cookies and donuts. I began to skip the pie at gatherings.
That all happened in my 30s.
Nowadays, motivated only by what I feel like eating or drinking instead of some desire to make healthy choices or something, my intake is good-tasting spring water (the tap water here sometimes tastes of mud), decent black coffee, inexpensive tea, and [of course] beer.
My food has taken a turn for the bland, too.
I buy carrots and celery at the store to munch on, instead of a bag of cookies. Things like rice and beans and fish have an abundance of flavor that I wasn't able to appreciate before. For gatherings, I make a big relish tray full of fresh vegetables -- and I munch on them more than anyone else does.
I seldom buy breakfast cereal now, but I used to eat a lot of it -- and I'd load it up with more sugar. Last year I did buy some store-brand raisin bran but I found that it was too much of a sugar bomb to really enjoy as a meal. I couldn't make myself finish it; most of it wound up in the compost. (I did find some very plain bran flakes that I liked a lot better -- 12-year-old me would not have been impressed.)
This is all a bit weird to describe because the only deliberate decision involved was to try to save a bit of money on coffee-house coffee in my 30s.
But did that decision actually have anything to do with it? Or is this instead a tale as old as time itself, wherein: Tastes simply change?
(But yeah, I do enjoy an occasional sugar bomb. But only literally-occasionally. For instance: A single 12-ounce bottle of Coke is very nice sometimes. I probably drink as many as 2 or 3 of those in a whole year.)
Is this a quote? Or your own take?
My own take. The point is that the link may be the other way around. The population of people who tend to drink coffee might age slower. Perhaps due to some third variable like wealth or race. Correlation is not causation.
These studies are often questionable at best, but usually they make some attempt to control for those things, did you check if they did in the study?
Is it possible that the coffee drinkers have more social interaction with the barista and others? It's unclear from the paper if they eliminated the confounding factors around coffee drinking.
Coffee can also be a very social thing right? In Denmark for example (Australia slightly less so) there are lots of social “coffee breaks” at work.
Do people have social interactions with their barista?
Yes
What other social interactions are needed more than: "One flat white to go, please", and "Thank you"? Asking genuinely, because I don't know what else I can say.
I usually make coffee at home, but the baristas are remarkably stable in my area. When I do go to a coffee shop (there are 2-3 that I might go to) there’s a good chance I’ll recognize the barista and that they’ll also remember me. In one such case I’ve been seeing the same one for close to a decade, and we always chat for a bit.
I think most baristas who do it for more than a year or two learn to not primarily be a coffee factory but first to make a positive impact on the people they see. The coffee is something that can be made consistent (and in a way, boring) through practice, but personal connection, especially when it is genuine, has a real draw.
Lots of things. “Could I have some sugar, please; two frappy mochachos? one with almond milk; can you explain what all these options are, please; what the hell is mushroom powder?” In today’s coffee shops this can lead to hours of complex social interaction at the counter, enriching our lives and ultimately extending our lifespans. — sorry, couldn’t resist. In seriousness, I actually find this conversation interesting. Some coffee shops do have quite a social culture around them, though I think they’re outliers on whole. Here in Spain it’s a mix, but in some it is like everyone’s friends with the barista.
Due to caffiene or something else?
I think not the caffeine. The beneficial/healthy parts of coffee tend to be the coffee itself.
3-4 cups of coffee is the exact amount you need to get through a workday, and only lower class types drink instant coffee.
All of these studies are hot garbage, hopelessly confounded, the biggest scam in science is "controlling for".
Do an RCT and watch the coffee magic evaporate.
RCTs are expensive and sometimes possible. We do these studies first. The paper says
>Our study suggests the importance of further research investigating the role of coffee consumption in biological ageing.
I sure liked the first half of this title.
But the second half of this title makes it an article worth forwarding to co-workers ;-)
> coffee consumption within the NHS recommended limit
yup it's true, and as some point out, consumption in the early morning, when we all get a proinflammatory, normal response, is perfect timing for the antioxidant flood of coffee to counteract it all.
The rest of the day is another story, every day! Hopefully one of the better stories.
I've been starting days with a bowl 2/3rds full of frozen blueberries (microwaved 2mins to soften) plus greek yogurt and a dash of maple syrup.
It's a lot of blueberries. But I can afford $60/month in frozen blueberries. Plus they're tasty. Also antioxidants or whatever.
That was my routine for a few years to ward off huntington’s disease. I don’t think the science panned out for blueberries and huntington’s, but in the mean time I got old enough to realize I didn’t have the genes for it (yes I was too cowardly to be tested)
And you got to eat a ton of tasty berries in the meantime! Also congrats on getting old :) happy for you.
Just enjoy some news and doom scrolling with your morning cuppa ;)
If I had severe mental illness I'd be immortal by now.
My stomach hates coffee at the moment :(. Too acidic. Not sure I’m ever going to be able to have it regularly.
Do you add whole milk to coffee? The casein and fat should help to reduce acidity and make it easier on the stomach.
If you can't do that, I've heard of people adding a sprinkle of baking soda as a buffer to black coffee. I'm not sure how much you'd need, probably just a tiny amount that you'd barely be able to taste.
Haven’t tried the latter, will give it a shot. Thank you!
This is typically true of coffee produced at scale. Large batches are often overcooked, chemically cooled and then left longer on the shelf. The result of these things is increased acidity. I have found that I can tolerate the small-batch locally-roasted stuff much better. If you want to give it a go, find a local coffee roaster (often it’s just coffee shop that roasts their own). You’ll know it has a chance of being good if the bag has a “roasted on” date within the last week or two. Discard anything you haven’t used up before 90 days.
I cut coffee for a year or so 10 years ago due to stomach issues, then slowly added fancy espresso drinks back, figuring that if I was only having coffee once a week, it might as well be fancy. I don’t seem to have stomach issues now with 1-2 lattes/cappuccinos a day.
Maybe it’s unrelated, all in my head, better beans, or the 3-4 oz of whole milk, but maybe give espresso drinks a try if you haven’t?
It’s likely a better roasting process and fresher beans. Large scale coffee roasters produce burnt, more acidic beans with chemicals added during the process.
Good point. It was all locally roasted beans at that point, so maybe that was what made the difference. Or at least contributed a lot.
I love coffee and used to drink it all the time, but now in my early 50's it really doesn't like me.
If I drink coffee my digestive system revolts in the the most disgusting ways. I miss it terribly, but its just not worth it.
A few tips if you didn't try yet:
- drink some water before the coffee
- ideally, don't drink it on an empty stomach
- use a dark roasted coffee, they are softer on the stomach (and way tastier)
I have ADHD, and I drink 2-3 cups' worth of coffee every day.
I'm basically a vampire now.
I've been self-medicating ADHD with multiple cups of coffee a day since I was 17. I'm in my early 30s now, and after getting on Vyvanse, have reduced then given up coffee. I realised that coffee was the reason for my anxiety which builds up towards the end of the day.
I reduced my coffee down to 1 espresso per day two months ago, and quit entirely two weeks ago. I'm still on stimulants, but Vyvanse treats ADHD much better and has fewer side-effects.
Same here, my afternoon anxiety from daily coffee consumption (1-2 cups typically) got really bad on some days. I was heavily addicted to coffee and nicotine for years but I managed to quit both of those after realizing that they weren't doing me any favors. I continued to have cravings until I got on ADHD medication then they practically disappeared overnight and never came back.
I think more people should give green or black tea a try, I found them to provide similar effects to coffee but with fewer side effects.
As a mentally ill vampire, I try to only feed on coffee drinkers.
Yesterday I drank a whole pot myself then had another cup or two. Keeps me in the game.
Where does that put me? Caffeine poisoning or immortality with no in between?
> Too much coffee reduced this positive effect
Well, I guess I have to die of something someday.
> 2-3 cups' worth
> basically a vampire now.
Do you mean 2-3 liters?
How do you know you're not?
There can only be one. Or two. Maybe three. Four shoots espresso a day.
Lots of coffee related articles reaching the front page recently.
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> within the NHS recommended limit
Over the NHS recommended limit is better than zero caffeine for everyone. If their limit is correct is in question
Whether "those with severe mental illness" get more benefit seems unlikely biologically. But like everyone coffee is good for you.
The only point of research like this, since we know coffee is good, is finding the mechanisms. But it's highly open to p-hacking/experimental error, which is how universities work now. You should default to this is citation farming.
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Please stop. Article summaries have always been off topic on HN.
It is a critique, not a summary. If you think it stops being one, point out where.
I don’t take articles at face value, especially when it comes to science reporting. Journalists often overstate or oversimplify studies, so I read the actual paper. I highlighted what it really says, what it doesn’t say, and what the article adds that isn’t in the study at all.
If an article misrepresents a paper’s core ideas, why shouldn’t that be called out? Misreporting confuses readers and undermines the authors’ work by failing to represent it accurately.
These AI posts are annoying
The posts or the AI replies to them?
Even the ones born not on Mondays between 0700 and 1100?