Last night I encountered a 3 min+ ad on YT about the construction of the iPhone 17 Pro. A few seconds were devoted to the cooling system. I watched the whole thing. It was better than the video it interrupted.
Watching that video, the first thought I have is "So much engineering and I still need to buy a phone case with my new phone?"
I'm guessing phone cases are still pretty much required if you drop your phone once or twice a month onto cement/asphalt/marble/etc from pocket height.
I would be really curious to hear the internal debate at Apple wrt design tradeoffs + durability. E.g. how much of the iPhone design is only possible because Apple is assuming the average person will have a case on their phone.
I wouldn't be surprised if the typical consumer would be more impressed by "No Case Required iPhone" compared to "Skinniest and lightest iPhone yet!".
Yeah, I never understand these caseless discussions.
I went caseless once since I didn't realize my case would arrive a week after I bought the phone.
The phone was slippery (couldn't temporarily rest it on my knee), and I found myself inspecting the restaurant/bar table any time I put the phone down after that one night I placed it right into a puddle of beer condensation and some mysterious food that got in the mic on the back of the phone and grossed me out.
The phone could be indestructible to drops and it still wouldn't solve those issues.
The caseless argument is that a multi-thousand dollar device shouldn't be so fragile that you MUST wrap it in plastic to be in any way functional.
A $1k phone SHOULD NOT be a frictionless glass prism. It should not skate away from you ob smooth surfaces. It should not be destroyed by falling 3 inches onto a hard surface. It should have some durability inherent to it.
But instead apple spends billions of dollars making phones even more fragile and it's everyone's problem. We now have to spin up factories processing plastic into custom cases, and throw out all the old plastic cases and the older, more functional phones.
The argument is that phones could (and should) be inherently more robust and durable all on their own. It should not be a hard requirement for you to go out and buy your own case just for the phone to survive any level of daily use.
If they made phones out of plastic instead of glass, this wouldn't be an issue. Plastic backed phones almost always have a texture and when they don't even smooth plastic offers more friction. Plastic phones don't slide away like they're on ice. They don't shatter like my Note 10 did when it slid out of my pocket two inches to the ground. They also don't usually self destruct when you repair them.
The caseless argument isn't that cases suck, it's that we MUST use cases because phones intentionally suck. A phone is not a functional object, it's artistic ego masturbation.
But didn't I just make a case (heh) that it's not only about drop fragility?
It's a cheap sacrificial shell that adds utility. My examples were non-slip and grime from a public table. Maybe add scratches and impact damage in there too because every material is susceptible to that, and avoiding them helps me resell it.
There's no way to build that into a phone. I don't want rubber non-slip bumpers on my phone or a built-in clawed up plastic shell when I can have them in a swappable shell.
I go caseless just because of sheer amount of bulk cases add, even the "thin" ones. It significantly impacts how easy the device is to hold and pocket.
The Air I might consider putting a bumper case on since its thinness offsets the bulk increase, but it's specifically made to be resilient to drops so it's a coin toss even with that.
I barely drop my phone though, it happens maybe twice a year, usually on carpet. In the last decade my phones might've had a run-in with concrete or pavement 2-3 times, tops.
I go caseless just because of sheer amount of bulk cases add, even the "thin" ones.
That's why I use an aramid fiber case from AliExpress. It's paper-thin, but has saved my phone from more drops than can remember. I used to go caseless, but since trying out aramid I don't see any practical benefit to caselessness.
Interesting. I tried an ultra-thin case before (though it was plastic). I dropped my phone one time with it and it shattered. The drop was pretty unforgiving. It was from head-height onto a thick marble floor. In 18 years of owning iPhones, this was my only catastrophic drop.
I think you probably can't go too wrong just searching for 600D aramid + the name of your phone and picking one from a seller with good reviews, but the specific one I have is this: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805920169643.html.
Before that, I was using this one from Thinborne: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CHLF8FD7. For all intents and purposes, they're functionally identical. I slightly preferred the style of the AliExpress one (camera glass cover + no logo), but the main reason I went for AliExpress when I needed a replacement was that it was half the price of the Thinborne. (The AliExpress one has since gone up ~$10, but the Thinborne one doesn't appear to be available at all anymore.)
Across many Apple devices, the only thing I've had break in the last 5 years is a watch that is 5 years old, and if I were picking which 3 devices to put on an Apple One plan that wouldn't even have been one of them (Mac, iPad, and phone all cost more). I think I'll try my luck without it.
AppleCare One has been a string of horror stories. Can’t even properly handle you having one Mac with multiple accounts, and you can’t go back to the plans you previously had if they’re discontinued, leaving you with worse service for more money.
It pays for itself the minute you have to replace a device. It’s insurance. The entire insurance industry is wasteful, by your argument. And like yeah it is. However most people prefer to amortize financial risk. That peace of mind is valuable.
This, and the options you probably would hate on the phone stock.
For my 17 Pro I got a case with a kickstand. If the kickstand breaks off I get a new $16 case. If it was built into the phone I’d possibly need a new backplate depending on the damage. Probably not $16 to fix. A built in kick stand would certainly become a love it or hate it feature based on how people use the thing.
And there are people out there who are going to be huge fans of the Flower Power iMac. They can get just such a case and Apple doesn’t have to take the loss on that given 2025 design aesthetic .
You usually just need to replace the front or back glass, which is $30 with Apple Care or $60 for both, not the entire iPhone. I crack mine about once a year.
How do you replace just the glass with AppleCare? They always tell you it’s a full phone replace if the glass is broken, unless it’s changed recently (which would be welcome).
Are the $10 "rugged defender style cases" found online actually as protective for drops as the $80 actual Otterbox Defender branded case?
I really wonder, seems like maybe, and might be worth looking into. If so, that would be fantastic and would make the case round to 2 orders of magnitude less costly than the device, instead of just 1.
But you’ll only ever see the “sacrificial layer,” and never see “real layer,” right? So are you only concerned about protecting against major functional breakage? Or maybe only concerned about resale value?
> Watching that video, the first thought I have is "So much engineering and I still need to buy a phone case with my new phone?"
You can buy a $400m yacht and still need buoys when you dock it.
Unless you want a phone that comes with a pre-installed rubber bumper around the outside, or we have some humanity altering discoveries in transparent materials science, you’re always going to have a case. Gravity and concrete are undefeated.
Saying "gravity and concrete are undefeated" is not explanatory.
In 25+ years of carrying a naked mobile phone everywhere I've never broken one. My lifestyle theoretically exposes me to significantly greater risk of damage than the average person too. I view phones as semi-disposable devices, so I take no special care or precautions.
I am eternally baffled as to why people need cases on their phones. The observation that many people do seem to break them frequently isn't an explanation. I can't wrap my head around the degree of clumsiness and carelessness that would seem to be required to explain this phenomenon.
> I am eternally baffled as to why people need cases on their phones.
> I view phones as semi-disposable devices, so I take no special care or precautions.
Have you considered that for other people phones are a significant financial investment?
That isn't explanatory. If they cared about the financial investment then they wouldn't be regularly smashing their phones in the first place because it is clearly possible to do without a case. It is a side effect of behavior.
Not always. Sometimes pockets aren’t deep enough, sometimes chairs are too low so that your pockets are angled downwards. As with anything in life it’s rather foolish to think you can control everything, so you add preventative measures on top of active avoidance.
Shit happens. Putting a case on my phone improves the likelihood that my $1200 phone doesn’t shatter. People have kids, animals, and make silly little mistakes that can have massively expensive consequences.
I’m not regularly smashing my phone or especially careless with it, but in a year I’ve seen it take a dozen or so drops and I’m glad it had a case on it when it did.
Like some other people said, I drop my phones weekly. Some on wood, some on carpet, and some on concrete. It is so bad that as I have my latest phone for 2 years, I have run across 2 cases, and about to need a 3rd one or go for an upgrade (and buy a new case anyways). I have shattered the glass / screen once but that was a long time back. Yes I am clumsy and I would call myself that even before someone else told me so.
The phone looks much nicer without a case. And in my 10+ ceaseless years, I’ve only damaged my phone once (and, in that case, I doubt that a thin silicone case would have saved me). And in that one case, I just needed to replace the front glass. Cost about $40 IIRC.
So why would I use a case?
Your mileage may vary, though, if you have kids, are a woman (fewer/shallower pockets), etc.
It is likely a textbook case of the paradox seen in many domains where humans take extra safety precautions as a license to be reckless such that it creates more damage than if the extra safety precautions were never taken.
How do you explain the contradiction of people who go through the pretense of protecting their phone then engaging in behavior that somehow smashes it regularly in a way that demonstrably cannot be explained by normal usage? There is an entire population of no-case-enjoyers who don't smash their phones despite the lack of extra protection.
How is the average reader to know whether you're an entirely average person or an eight-sigma indoors dweller who never goes hiking, never asks another person to take a photo of you, never does any sports...
That is not relevant to the question of how people constantly break something that isn't particularly breakable. If they cared about the cost of the phone, I would expect them to demonstrate slightly less wanton disregard for it such that they routinely smash it. I also know plenty of people that regularly break their phones even with a case.
At some point, you have to conclude people don't actually care if they smash their phone based on how frequently they do it.
You must have excellent coordination. Others, like me, are clumsy. Its certainly not wanton disregard that results in me dropping my phone. It just feels like it slides out of my hands sometimes.
I'd have to live my life in an unsustainable state of vigilance and care to not drop things.
Heck, even when I think I'm being careful (eg carrying a very full mug or glass), I'm liable to focus on what I'm doing to the point of messing it all up due to lack of awareness (eg keeping my glass nice and still until I bump my elbow into the door frame and spill some of my drink).
Some of it may be differences in skin. I have fairly dry skin and an aluminum phone is slippery as hell. I put mine in a case not for protection from drops - I almost never drop it - but to prevent those drops by giving me a little grip. YMMV
It’s really not. I one time had a phone fall out of my pocket while getting out of my truck, and literally hit my foot on its way down which propelled it face up into the bottom of my front tire which shattered the screen. There was absolutely nothing I could do to stop it, and there’s no reason I’d have ever thought it’d just fall out. I probably got out of that truck in the exact same way for 2 years and the phone never fell out.
The fact you’re baffled that accidents happen makes me question if you’re trolling or literally live in a bubble.
If I was going to cover up my phone with a plastic case, I wouldn’t buy a $1,000 device when most of that money is spent on high quality industrial design and appearance.
Having bought from both sides of the aisle, I couldnt give two shits about the industrial design or appearance. As long as the screen works, and all the hardware and software inside does its job, it could be covered in giant dongs for all I care.
It depends on where you drop it. Dropping phones on pavement is easy mode. One mistake over coarse gravel and you're pretty fucked even without much height.
For some time I was like you. But then things happened, for example I put the phone on an outdoor restaurant table, someone kicked the table, phone fell down onto the metal base of the table, screen cracked. There isn't really anything I could do to save it short of not carrying it around, or using a case.
Never thought of that, last time I used a taxi it was a dial phone so it has never been a consideration for decades.
I'm old enough to where I won't be forgetting any time soon how excellent things can be without any phone at all, much less cellular. Land lines were usually too expensive for students but people weren't crying about doing without.
I do bring the flatphone with me regularly, just not most of the time, and only when I have a strong anticipation of wanting or even needing it.
In a restaurant I didn't even like pagers when they were a thing.
Pagers might have been anti-social with their piercing interruptions, but least they weren't as annoying to carry around as an oversized internet-connected device.
And definitely not as anti-social as a phone having Facebook with a human being strung along attached by the finger.
I grew up without mobile phones. Now in 2025 it's just much more practical to carry the phone with me. On the bike I use it as a bike computer and navigation, plus it's great to have for emergencies. When out in the town, any town, it's again a navigation, I can pay parking, public transport or call a taxi. And much much more. Nobody forces me to use social networks, so I don't, and I completely agree with you it sucks to see people sit in restaurants and spend most of the time looking at their phones.
Ah, yes I do think the older generation of phones were more durable. My point was that the technology had a significant change and there's at least 2 different generations of products called "phones" in that time period and comparing them against each other on durability is not a reasonable argument
It's not a matter of durability, it's basic "smartness".
Sony had regular ordinary quick-change batteries, at least their own Memory Sticks for removable storage before they ended up settling for SD cards, plus the essential USB connection in addition to bluetooth to connect you to your PC to at least use the PC OS to handle the file management of the phone.
And there was always the PC software suite for Sony owners so you could get your PC online before there were hotspots, and you could do texting and make calls from the PC, update the phone, install phone apps from the PC, etc. You could consider the phone a peripheral of the PC, or the PC a peripheral of the phone. And integration was supposed to continue getting better from there.
Like a normal smartphone way before the iPhone appeared, which the iPhone had none of the established hallmarks of smartness, except that it was on the internet. Plus it was locked down in annoying ways never before seen.
Jobs was pretty intense with his reality distortion efforts, he got people to believe until this day that smartphones didn't exist until he had success with it. What it really was was that established smartphones were about $500 and almost nobody was going to pay that so naturally they were not flying off the shelf any more than they ever had been. It was actually widely considered pretty stupid to pay that much for a phone at the time unless you were deeply in need of those connected features.
He convinced enough people that phones had never been so "smart" since there were so few having any experience with them. But why stop there? While he was at it he got his fans to pay almost $1000 too.
> Unless you want a phone that comes with a pre-installed rubber bumper around the outside…
I had one of those rugged Android phones before my current iPhone, I think it was the Ulefone Armor X7 Pro. I happened to drop it a few times, worst was from about 1.7 meters up while doing pull ups (wired headphones and busted pants pocket zipper) on concrete. Thought that it’d be a goner for sure, but no, just scratched up the corner of the frame, it had a soft and rubbery quality to it (at least compared to regular plastic).
It was actually a really nice phone, good battery life and everything, except for the part where the battery eventually turned into a pillow and since it’s not exactly easily used serviceable I just moved on.
Since, I started to like iOS but my ideal setup functionality wise would still be something one step closer to a brick with a big battery and a protective exterior (glueing a power bank to my current iPhone case would be a bit silly though).
> Unless you want a phone that comes with a pre-installed rubber bumper around the outside, or we have some humanity altering discoveries in transparent materials science, you’re always going to have a case. Gravity and concrete are undefeated.
But they are defeated. By plastics, no bumper required. This is why the Nokia Windows phones felt so indestructible, polycarbonate is an amazing material for a phone body.
Since almost everyone uses cases anyway, I don't understand why phones are all metal and glass. I want a phone with a light plastic body. Pixel 4a 5G was my favourite phone, the same weight as iPhone Air. The new Pixel 10 is already over 200g.
Neither do i, i drop it often, throw it about and its fine.
Everyone goes mad and is surprised, but whats the point if buying a nice phone then covering it in a case.
You don’t leave the bumpers out at all times. The decking and furniture are all built from suitable materials to not need additional protection. Phone cases are an anomaly.
I disagree that phones are unique in being fragile without protection, what is unique is that we want to carry them around all day without treating them as delicate. The things we eat off and drink out of often can't be dropped from waste height onto the floor without breaking, the front of the microwave or oven isn't unbreakable glass, nor a laptop, or... plenty of things. We're just OK treating them all as things to avoid dropping.
I think you'd be surprised by how durable the newer phones are, especially the iPhone Air. It's hard to completely protect a glass screen from shattering since its a crystalline material encased in a metal enclosure that is more likely to dent than flex, absorb the impact and return to it's shape, but they keep getting better and I think most people could go without a case if they really wanted to.
If you're curious about just how durable the iPhone Air is, take a look at the latest Jerry Rig Everything video where it exceeded his typical scratch test resits and he was unable to bend it with his hands.
> Typical smartphone glass starts scratching at a level 6 on the Mohs scale of hardness, but Zack’s picks barely left marks even at 7. “Apple ruined my line,” he joked, noting that Corning’s new Ceramic Shield 2 is a big improvement over last year’s iPhone 16 lineup, even besting the Galaxy S25 Ultra’s Gorilla Armor 2, which showed visible scratches at a level 6 when it was put to the same test earlier this year.
and
> Using a crane scale in his garage, he applied direct pressure in the center of the iPhone Air until it finally gave way. The iPhone Air endured up to 216 pounds (~98kg) of force before its front glass finally cracked and the titanium frame flexed past the point of recovery. Surprisingly, the back glass came out unscathed, and the phone was still powered on and usable in the end.
glass can either scratch or resist impact. It's not that they have a secret alien technology, just basic engineering tradeoffs. (and maybe slightly better than average quality control, which today is basically just not shipping known bad production lots)
Also, i find it nice that they decided to honor they allegiance pledge to the regime with an Orange model. It was a nice touch.
I’ve been caseless for a while and have had a couple of drops and the phone has been fine. When I eventually upgrade my phone, I’ll probably stay caseless, or add minimal protection. Mainly cause if the increasingly rare catastrophic drop happens, it’d be unpleasant to deal with.
I do like some cases for their design elements, I might use one to just further personalize my phone.
I have been caseless forever. If I drop the phone and it breaks I’ll bring it to repairs (I used to do it myself but it’s more complicated now and I don’t have the time anymore anyways).
To answer both comments at the same time, I very rarely drop my phone. It happened 3 or 4 times, from pocket height, the screen stayed intact. Got a few scratches but that’s all (it’s the mini).
Almost the same here. We got new identical phones in 2023 for a good deal because they were made in 2022.
She breaks hers fairly regularly and myself not at all so far.
I guess they are considered obsolete already because in our complex there was apparently someone operating a cellphone shop who was discarding a couple dozen assorted brand new cases for this exact phone!
Fancy ones, tough ones, light ones, some with kickstands, quite a variety.
None of which I could abide for very long. She loves the most fashionable one.
Then one day I found something I could use that was made of a space-age fiber I have been long acquainted with, rayon.
It was an ankle sock, and it was not one of hers.
Pretty much useless by itself as footwear, so it existed for a time as orphan laundry before I tried it.
Uncased phone doesn't fall out when you handle it upside down, but slips out real easy when you want it to. Plus you can see who's calling through the fiber without having to remove it beforehand.
It surprised me that people seem to show more interest than they do for more fashionable alternatives that are not even footwear at all :)
I don't know what it is about iPhones but I find them to get damage/chips/scratches super easy compared to the Android phones I've used.
Maybe the new phones are better, but I was quite disappointed when I noticed how easy the paint came off. What's the point of a pretty phone if you're gonna need me to put a case around it?
Phone cases are not required. I’ve been using an iPhone 12 for nearly five years now — and yes, I’ve carelessly dropped it plenty of times, onto very hard surfaces.
It’s got a couple of tiny dents in it, but the screen is untouched and it works like new. I’ve never used a case.
In the iPhone 4 era, if you were unlucky enough to drop your phone even once onto a table the screen will have almost certainly instantly shattered into a million pieces. But that’s far from true now; things have come a long way. The ‘No Case Required iPhone’ is already here.
The titanium iPhones, at least, are nearly impervious to scratches when dropped on concrete or asphalt from a reasonable height. I “scientifically” test this pretty often.
Because the iPhone 15 pro was significantly lighter than previous pro models, I wanted to avoid a case to get the most out of this improvement. However, I wouldn’t have even experimented with not using a case if it weren’t for the applecare+ plans that are reasonable. I’ve been surprised by the durability to the extent that I should probably discontinue the applecare+ plan.
The aluminum models might not be as durable. Compared to phones 20 or even 30 years ago that didn’t need a case, I suppose a significant difference is the density as much as the total weight or the hardness of the materials.
Phones 20 years ago didn’t have expansive glass-covered screens. The biggest I had (blackberry curve) was fairly plasticky and quite sturdy, when dropped it might sometimes eject the battery compartment cover but otherwise survived in perfect working order. And of course Nokias were almost indestructible.
I mean, they were pretty trivial electronic components with a tiny screen wrapped in a kg of plastic. Like, what even could go wrong with them?
But modern smartphones are anything like that, and people do like the more premium materials on the outside (and it sort of makes sense - if you have a device that you are using 24/7, it might as well "feel" more premium), so I don't think it's a fair comparison
How do you propose making a device that people wouldn't feel the need to put a case on? You could make the whole thing out of rubber but that's still going to take cosmetic damage that people want to protect the device from. You could make it easy to replace that rubber... but at what point is that not just functionally the same as a case?
One way would be to have an accelerometer detect that the phone is falling, and have tiny spring-actuated bumpers, wires, or feet extend from the corners of the phone to catch its fall. Little stainless-steel or Nitinol wires would do great.
Back when the early iPods actually contained a spinning hard drive, they had something similar. If it detected a fall, it would quickly park the hard drive to avoid damage.
I bought a cheap(£150 at the time) phone 3-4 years ago called "Ulefone" where in a sense the 'case' is built in to the phone. It is marketed as a phone for handymen or outdoor functions.
It is a bit bigger with protective shell around it is bulky, but withstood all the drops that a typical phone would break. There is some flaring around the screen and camera that it prevents most of scratches. The back has some sort of hard rubber but it held up well.
I've only had to replace the screen protector within 3 years as the scuffs and marks made it difficult to see in well-lit environment.
I don't use a case or screen protectors. My 15 Pro frequently falls on the floor. The back shattered on multiple occasions, but even then never became a cut hazard. The screen remains pristine.
Did you know there are cases that will prevent that damage and avoid the massive carbon footprint associated with the repairs you were fortunate enough to get?
That's been the case for several years now. Gone caseless with iPhone X, 12, and 13 Pros for years now and have gotten some scratches to the sides and a small crack on the back glass here or there, but no significant screen scratches or breaks. Some scuffing around the edges is it.
Last time I broke the front screen of a phone was an HTC Evo.
A few years back I fumbled my iPhone so badly that when I tried to catch it I knocked it further up in the air. It flew up dropped all the way down to the concrete subway platform I was on, landing face down. It was loud and worrisome, but the phone was perfectly fine outside of some scratches on the lip of aluminum around the screen.
So it seems like the screens are not easily broken anymore. Though that event did lead to me using a case on my next phone just to avoid chancing cosmetic damage on it.
I started using cases after having a Pixel 2 XL shatter in a 1 foot drop onto a granite countertop, but started going case-less again with my most recent iPhone 15 Pro (ironically, after the horrible quality Apple case I mistakenly bought with it disintegrated).
It's been a year so far of completely non-cautious use and my general take is:
* The screen still scratches; I leave my phone in my pocket or a bicycle saddle bag and it definitely has some damage. However, it is only visible with the screen off, and it turns out not to bother me a single bit.
* The frame of the phone seems almost invulnerable; even with a case many of my older phones got dinged corners, and this one is perfect.
* Overall, the only functional issue I have had with going caseless has been the propensity for the protruding cameras to pick up dust and fingerprints. I find myself having to wipe them even more frequently than I did when I had a case.
I suspect that a case still would have been a net-positive fiscal investment, I'll probably have to sell this phone in "good" or "fair" condition rather than "factory new" like a phone with a case and glass screen protector for its whole life, so I'll lose $50-$100. But I like using the phone on its own. The side and action buttons finally function as they should and the size benefit is appreciated.
Anyway, I'm now a caseless fan and this makes me very interested in the new Air. I think the need for cases is perhaps overblown and especially in a premium market like high-end iPhones where the consumer probably isn't as sensitive to aftermarket value, no-case isn't as rare or foolish as it would seem. For that reason, I doubt a bit that Apple are assuming the average person has a case on their phone. I'm sure they do focus groups, testing, and have some degree of telemetry to understand the case-vs-no-case debate in detail and I strongly doubt that the conclusion is "we assume there will be a case so we will do X".
The scratches are a feature not a bug. Older iPhones used to scratch way less, but shatter when sneezed at.
Now the glass has “a bit more give” which allows it to bounce back and not break like the super hard ones from before.
I’ve abused my 14 pro for quite a while and it has a lot of scratches, but only when the screen is off, otherwise I don’t really see them. Ironically the always on display helps here …
I dropped my iPhone 15 Pro Max to my wife's iPhone 14 and it cracked the 14's screen right away. Because of these event, I started going caseless with my 15.
Cases can absorb so much stress because they're made of soft materials that degrade over time. I replace mine ~once a year. Such materials aren't really a good match to be built directly into a phone.
> I'm guessing phone cases are still pretty much required if you drop your phone once or twice a month onto cement/asphalt/marble/etc from pocket height.
This hasn’t been true for a while with iPhones. I drop mine about this often, and after a few years it’s a little scratched but otherwise fine.
> I'm guessing phone cases are still pretty much required if you drop your phone once or twice a month onto cement/asphalt/marble/etc from pocket height.
Here's video of a drop test where the new Pro version survived drops to the pavement on its front, back, and side from hip height, then the same three drops from shoulder height, before finally having the front glass fail in the third drop from as high above his head as dude's arms would reach.
I think the average person wouldn't run into a meaningful problem without a case, maybe a light scratch or two somewhere if they looked closely, it's just the idea they might need a case that leads them to use one. This is probably even more true of screen protectors - which add on to this because they scratch much easier than a phone screen would, making people think "wow, it's a good thing I used a screen protector!" even if it wouldn't have been a problem for them.
Because of the above, I don't think there is anything (reasonable) smartphone manufacturers could do to make people feel like they shouldn't add one just in "case".
I never understood screen protectors. In 15 years I have never used a screen protector on any smartphone, and have also never had any scratches on the screen either.
On average, I keep the same phone for 3-4 years (current phone is an iPhone 11, coming up on 6 years old).
I use a screen protector to prevent wear to the oleophobic coating, which had noticeably degraded on my previous iPhone. I know you can also buy treatments to replace the coating on the screen itself, but I don't know how good they are, and the screen protector is easier to replace if eventually needed.
(I walk a good deal and also bike with the phone in my pocket, so it's possible my phone gets above average wear in this department.)
It’s easy to understand, when the phone accidentally drops on concrete from >1m of height there is a great chance of shattering the glass. It happens to millions of person, myself included, no matter the care it’s an accident that can cost 300$ to repair. 10$ the screen protector is worth it.
I guess you’re lucky !
I was only talking about screen protectors, not cases. I've always used some sort of case, primarily around the edges of the phone, to protect against drops. But never one that also put something over the screen.
You are really lucky. I broke several screens and my wife also (on 2nd day of iPhone 6s it fell into concrete). Since then I’ve never been without a screen protector and I break it at least 3 times a year. Maybe the screen wouldn’t have broke and the SP did ? I won’t take the risk given the price of the SP vs the pain of changing a screen.
The last time I tried to go naked the 13 pro max fell from my pocket because there is zero grip and I had a dent on the border
Sorry I meant the border of the screen protector and the frame as well in the fall. Maybe the screen would have survived but phones are so slippery that without protections it’s a big risk
If you want to do a trade in every 1, 2, or 3 years then scratches or damage to the phone can decrease the value on the old phone.
I tried rocking no case and broke the screen which isn’t a huge deal but required attention, downtime, and the phone didn’t work the same way after repair.
I'm a person who tends to accidentally throw my phone around a lot, and don't use a case (cause the added bulk makes me throw it around even more). Often on ceramic tiles, often with added velocity from me walking or hitting it in the air while trying to catch it.
My iPhone 13 Pro still survived 3 years, and only had some scratches and bruises on its corners, but nothing broke (still in use, by someone else now). My iPhone 16 Pro after a year of that same treatment is almost unblemished (a small bruise on one of the corners).
These are, in practice, extremely resistant to damage.
After iPhone 14, they are remarkably durable in any fall situation.
My 14 pro flew from its mount while driving 80km on a motorbike in Vietnam and bounced about on the asphalt, when I eventually retrieved it, it had a few small scratches, and a crack at the back, which I “fixed” by just adding a case.
Honestly I was incredibly surprised, previous phones I owned would shatter to bits if the fell from the bedside table, this guy literally survived a highway toss. Props to the engineers.
I remember that there was a Dilbert comic, back when Apple started releasing models with back-and-front glass, that referred to "a smartphone" as being "BSB," which stood for "Beautiful, Slippery, Brittle." The idea was that buyers were encouraged to not get a case (thus, hiding the "beauty"), but it was easy to drop ("slippery"), and easy to break ("brittle").
I don't use a phone case or a screen protector. Examining my phone which is about two years old, there are a few hairline cracks on the back glass, and the front glass is mildly scratched if I hold it at just the right angle to catch the light. I'm sure if I dropped it on concrete at the right height and angle it'd fully crack the screen but generally speaking I haven't needed a case in nearly a decade.
I’ve been carrying an iPhone since the first one - so, almost 20 years?
Have never used a case. I’ve dropped them plenty of times. Only once did I do major damage, and that was to the all-glass rear panel of a 4S. I’ve never broken a screen or had to replace a phone due to damage.
The iPhone is very durable! You don’t need a case. They’re bulky and ugly!
I don't think most people need a bulky case. You can get aramid cases that barely add any thickness, but still protect the phone from dents and scuffs.
I don't have experience with iPhones, but I assume they're pretty similar to recent non-foldable Samsung flagships. My S23U has had many falls over the past 2.5 years, been surprisingly fine. Maybe they've finally gotten good enough to survive the typical fall reliably.
I've never used a case, throw my phones in every corner and never cracked the screen. Anecdotally, I see fewer and fewer broken phones with every year, they last.
> I still need to buy a phone case with my new phone?
…you don’t. I don’t. My phone is scratched here and there, but not in a way that I notice. I used to defend this with my purchasing of insurance, but frankly, I crack the screen now maybe once every 2+ years.
> Apple is assuming the average person will have a case on their phone
I think it is fair to assume that irrespective of the design, most people will case their phones. Leaning into that is fine as long as the phone is still functional without a case. (Which, again, every iPhone in the last decade has been.)
For my phones, I use the cheapest most-featureless blackest thinnest TPU cases I can get my hands on.
They tend to [just barely] cover the edges of the glass screen, they're very inexpensive. They never seem to wear out in any appreciable way.
So far, zero broken screens in the ~16 years I've been carrying these pocket computers absolutely everywhere...and I drop them about as often as anyone else does, I suppose.
> functional without a case. (Which, again, every iPhone in the last decade has been.
Agreed they're functional without a case.
Whether it's functional after dropping it face down on the glass onto cement/marble is another question!
I'm not too concerned with cosmetic scratches. The main issue is the screen shattering. And the back of the phone shattering in older models where the back was glass.
I have a case, and therefore I don’t crack my screen (or back), ever. When I sell it after upgrading, I can truthfully list it as “like new” (after a battery replacement).
I have an iPhone 13 pro max. Bought it on release, never used a case and it’s still in perfect condition. I don’t drop it once or twice a month though, but definitely dropped it before.
With the new thin phones, and unibody metal phones, I hope people start moving towards ultra-thin aramid/kevlar cases. I have one on an S25 Edge and it's a lot different from the fatter phone era. I don't see why you wouldn't, frankly, on the new shatterless iPhones.
AppleCare+ basically makes it so having a case or screen protector isn't a requirement for me. I was actually only using a screen protector for about a year, but what I found was they actually are more fragile than the phone's screen itself. I was going through them every 2-3 months. So about a year ago I stopped using screen protectors as well and have dropped the phone many times like how I dropped it with the screen protector and the screen has been fine.
Sure I have some scratches on the screen, but so what? If the front or back glass shatter, it's $29 to fix.
> I'm guessing phone cases are still pretty much required if you drop your phone once or twice a month onto cement/asphalt/marble/etc from pocket height.
I mean... yeah? What consumer tech is that resilient? Maybe put a lanyard on the your phone and attach it to your belt, I mean..
They could make a toughbook style phone for people with such habits, but engineering a mainstream device for such resiliency is going to be overkill for most users and cause a lot of tradeoffs in size/cost/features.
This is a wild statement to make so matter of factly.
Do cases guarantee your screen won't break if you drop your phone? No. Do they dramatically diminish the likelihood of cracked glass in the most common scenario of phone falling on flat concrete? Absolutely.
It’s no longer worth the risk though. You need your phone for so much stuff having it break is extremely inconvenient. And given the price of phones, and the cost of cases and screen protectors, theres no reason not to do it.
I have gone through several sacrificial layers of glass to save several versions of gorilla glass (etc). I have also lost several screens later because I wasn't quick enough in replacing the sacrificial glass.
Some of us are harder on our things than others...
Same. Just a thin rubber strip around the permimeter or something like that to make it a bit easier to hold would probably be all I need. A completely caseless phone is too slippery.
Most big screen damage happens from things hitting the edge of the phone. Cases prevent this. Also, the edge is the one area not really protected by screen protectors.
This is a heat pipe. A technology from the 60s. Your laptop almost certainly has heat pipes in it. They usually use alcohol rather than water as the phase change material though. The (relatively) novel thing is that it's packaged small enough to be in a phone. I suspect the only reason it hasn't been used in handhelds more is because the TDP of mobile processors wasn't high enough to warrant it.
Vapor chambers and heat pipes use some of the same physics concepts, but a vapor chamber is significantly more effective for spreading heat across a large area. They’re also harder to manufacture and more complex.
Have you ever seen a CPU or GPU heat sink that has 5-6 heat pipes in parallel because they need to spread the head over a larger area? A vapor chamber is an upgrade over heat pipes in applications that aren’t moving heat from a point to a line.
Perhaps it's just that in retrospect, it seems a relatively small jump from heat pumps to vapor chambers.
Do you know if the vapor chambers operate at reduced internal atmospheric pressure? Unless I'm missing something, in order to get the liquid-gas phase boundary to a useful temperature, you'd have to bring the pressure down to, idk, 10kPa (boiling point of water is ~50C)? That would complicate manufacturing for sure, and also means that any leaks are catastrophic for your thermal solution.
Also I would be remiss if I did not note that the refrigerant designation of water is R-718.
Heat pipes are one dimensional (a pipe), vapor chambers are two dimensional (a square chamber). Most vapor chambers I've seen on GPUs have the chamber attached to lots of small heat pipes on the side though (they even note this in article, in case you feel like reading it).
That said, I assume the main technical breakthrough here is in manufacturing, producing tiny chambers consistently in enough volume for iphones.
Any passive phase change thermal solution is doing the same thing - take thermal energy from one place, and distribute it for dissipation. My point is that the geometric configuration isn't that important, it's doing the same work the same way. Not really worth arguing about, I just suspect that the branding people love that they had a new buzzword in "vapor chamber" to bandy about.
This thread reminds me of a friend that was dismissive of anything Apple does. “They didn’t invent it”, “they rebranded someone else’s invention”, “maybe they invented it but all those features are just marketing”.
No, he has never used owned or used an Apple product. Not worth his time.
I think your friend spoke a kernel of truth while misunderstanding what Apple do well. It's pretty rare that they come out with something that hasn't been done at small scale previously, but they have insane scale (100s of millions of iPhones sold per model), and a well-developed ability to take cutting edge techniques, as well as some tech that is in development but not ready for prime time, and integrate it and release it in products a year before anyone else can tool up to compete.
>The (relatively) novel thing is that it's packaged small enough to be in a phone
Android/other phones have had heat pipes/vapour chambers for a long time now. I'm not sure why anybody calls this novel or new even when applied to mobile devices.
As I understand it, it’s more than that: there are small “inverted pyramids” that cause the water to condense more rapidly, to extract even more heat from the system.
Vapor chambers are in laptops already. Mostly gaming laptops, because they need help getting the heat away from GPUs.
The miniaturisation of vapor chambers is cool, though. Not new (phones have been coming out with those for years), but it's not "just" another heatpipe.
I think that the fact that more and more phones producing so much heat that they need vapor chambers is also something worth writing about.
That said, most news media seems to have drunk the Apple kool aid because they all rave about the vapor chamber for some reason. I guess iPhone media is just a few years behind the curve.
Oppo uses these in some of their phones. They gave a factory tour to the "Know Art" Youtube channel, which made a good video on it: https://youtu.be/qAZ-q3KmDHM
Majority of your comments are nothing more than just bashing Apple with things that aren’t even the case.
Nobody, especially not the title of this post, says anything about this being “innovative” or “omg”.
I think you are right that there is an Apple mental field that controls people, but I actually think the effect is on the other side.
Most Apple fans just comment on something new and go like “hey, look how neat this”. The haters, on the other hand, respond with more or less the same thing multiple times even in the same thread.
I understand if a kid does it, it’s innate to humans to side with Pepsi or Cola, with Xbox or PS, but for an adult, it’s just sad.
If you love tech, just appreciate new things regardless of who the company that makes them is. And if you don’t, then why waste your time on hating it all the time? Just get a hobby.
I'm interested to see how many/few complaints we see about the iPhone Air overheating, since it has almost the exact same chip as the 17 Pro but a simpler cooling system
"My phone is really hot, is this normal or is it broken?!" is something I started getting asked by random iPhone-using friends over the last few years as they upgraded to a new model and then felt it sizzling.
Got my air yesterday and it definitely gets hot. Will see how it does after a few days as I expected the heat due to the initial sync and transfer, and iOS indexes everything for a day or two.
Got my air yesterday and it definitely gets hot. Will see how it does after a few days as I expected the heat due to the initial sync and transfer, and iOS indexes everything for a day or two.
I have one, too, and you're right that the heating is just what happens while it restores its data and settings and whatnot.
I believe it also re-scans your entire photo library to re-identify dogs, cars, people, etc. with whatever improved algorithm comes with the new chip/OS.
This happens every time you get a new iPhone. Depending on how much it has to sort through, it can take a couple of hours to a week.
I always leave the case off for the first few days.
>I'm interested to see how many/few complaints we see about the iPhone Air overheating
One less core, and from the benchmarking it's clear that it throttles a fair bit earlier than the rest. Even worse its a titanium body so worse dissipation
Why have none of the major players tried integrating a case? Making a ruggedized version? They could probably do a lot better and find ways to innovate with something integrated.
Why do they ignore the fact that so many people use cases (and the market opportunity)? It's almost a defect at this point. Some people like the personalization but I think a lot of people just want something that won't break when you drop it...
> Why do they ignore the fact that so many people use cases (and the market opportunity)?
Apple sells cases.
There are ruggedized phones available. The market is small.
You can get away without a case with a modern iPhone for longer than most people assume.
The average person does better with a $10 sacrificial case layer that snaps on to their phone that can be replaced whenever they want or if it gets damaged.
Lots of reasons. The most obvious ones that come to mind:
1. People like a variety of custom cases that themselves have features (eg wallet cases random designs etc). If it’s built into the phone that customization capability is worse because you now have two layers of protection making for a very thick and heat-insulating design.
2. It’s valuable to have partners that make accessories for your device. If you kill that line of business for them, other things may go away and those partners will want to work with you less.
3. An integrated case will still suffer cosmetic damage. But now without the option to replace, you’re stuck with that damage.
I’ve had phones before that rugged enough to not want a case. It’s great, I wish there were good options like that today. But I think I prefer a separate case. When mine gets enough wear and tear, I replace it and it feels like I have a whole new phone.
When the bare phone is in your hand and it's quite a bit warmer than body temperature, your hand may very well be carrying away more heat than ambient air exchange would be capable of.
For phones that heat up enough to need it, the screen also acts as a way to dissipate heat. Unless you put an extremely thick screen protector on there, the phone will still be able to get rid of some heat through the glass.
I do wonder how this will affect benchmarks, though. I can imagine the phones running slower in practice compared to reviews because the reviewers don't put a case on there.
I've noticed my iPhone get hot the most while using the camera. Especially while taking video, but after a few photos it gets hot as well. I was on vacations last week in a tropical country and took a lot of photos with my 16 Pro and it gets so hot after just a few photos that it starts lagging A LOT due to the throttling.
I'm sure this is handy for LLM usage, but this was a problem before those were a thing I'd say.
I have the same case, iPhone 16 pro is getting really hot when taking photos and videos it’s unbearable. I will change my phone for that reason, the battery melts right away …
I noticed something though, when taking a picture with the x5 camera if I cover the main lens the brightness changes. So I think the iPhone now merges the two stream to enhance quality. That wasn’t the case before and that might be why the phone is getting hot
I still don't understand why massive cooling efforts are needed when most people are just sending messages and watching videos anyway. Your phone from 10 years ago could do that
I have an iPhone Air now and have no complaints about the heating. The thinness is worth the occasional heat and throttle down. Every time I pick up this phone, it just feels fantastic!
I am considering buying the Air over the base model 17. Only concern I have is whether the battery will degrade faster over charging cycles than base model? Someone with more experience in battery tech could explain if that could be the case possibly?
Of course it will. Less capacity, it means that you'll have more cycles per year (for example you might need to charge base model once in a two days, while air once in a day); or you'll keep air at more extreme battery values (for example you might charge base model every day, but you'll charge it from 25% to 80%, while you'll charge air model every day from 5% to 80%).
That doesn't matter, though. Battery replacement on iPhones is very common procedure and you'll need to replace both batteries eventually.
It doesn’t matter because people who buy iPhone Air likely enjoy owning cutting edge experimental products. So when the folding iPhone comes out in a year or two they will probably switch to that. The battery only needs to survive long enough for that.
Back when I had the iPhone 5S (7.6 mm vs the 5.6 mm of the iPhone 17 Air): It provided value in terms of feel. It felt like a piece of art meeting cutting edge technology. It wasn't about showing off.
It was also so light that it felt safe to use it without a protective case. And not that expensive.
Solid, tactile, and just the right size. Mine finally got stuck in a boot loop earlier this year, but I keep it in my desk drawer, and pick it up occasionally. The mute switch (an actual switch, not a button) is still the best.
My original iPhone (bought in June 2007 for competetive research) has started swelling and won't boot up. Still keeping it. Maybe I should store it in a bucket of sand though.
> In Apple’s version, a small amount of deionized water is sealed in the chamber. […] Water is often used in vapor chambers, though sometimes other materials are mixed in to prevent it from freezing and cracking the seal, Chiriac says.
So Apple uses deionized water, while others add in some other chemicals to prevent it from freezing. So how will the new iPhone deal with freezing temperatures?
Is it necessary to prevent the water from freezing? If the chamber and water within are subzero while the SoC produces sufficient heat, the ice would simply melt.
* Edit: the article mentioned freezing could crack the seal. Freezing would be a bigger issue than I had thought, then.
I remember being stuck on a ski lift on a day that was too cold and windy for any intelligent person to be skiing. The phone in my breast pocket was cold to the touch and the battery capacity evaporated by 50%. The display's response time was hundreds of ms. I turned it off at that point.
Not a huge deal. Just charge it when it's warmer. I would have been a little surprised if something inside popped and suddenly the phone started thermal throttling or had water damage.
In my city, temperatures are regularly below -20 Celsius and sometimes below -40. iPhone just doesn't work. You need to keep it close to body and you can't use it outside for a prolonged period of time, it'll simply shut off in a few minutes and won't turn on until you heat it.
Old phones and some android phones work just fine in these conditions.
They must be struggling to hit their perf/w targets if this ended up being necessary.
These phones are not going to age well, the paste or thermal pads is not going to last. Larger sheets of graphene for full size processors and gpus are good for a decade, at this size it'll be lucky to get to 5.
With iPhone 17 line the security situation has improved dramatically. I'm not a cybersecurity researcher, but Apple says even nation-state actors will struggle to breach a single device with the newly introduced Memory Integrity Enforcement mechanism. Their research appears legit:
This is very clearly an entirely different class of effort than Blastdoor was/is. They decided that they needed a hardware solution to kill a category of exploits; Apple has a very good track record in this kind of thing.
Yup. Pretty similar to the modern threat profile of Android, all things considered.
> your average Android device has multiple publicly known remote execution issues.
Help me distinguish between "publicly known" RCE vulns and private ones. Do the privately owned exploits like FORCEDENTRY count as "publicly known", or only the Greykey/Cellebrite exploits used by governments?
Apple’s primary motivation is to sell hardware. Their brand is hurt if their direct customers suffer damages through malware.
Google’s primary motivation is to sell ads. Their brand is not hurt if phone brand FlirpleFoo ships millions of Android devices and then hurts those customers by not keeping those devices secure.
> Pretty similar to the modern threat profile of Android, all things considered
I don’t think this is accurate. Not even every nation-state would be expected to have access to iPhone zero days, particularly with the new memory protection rolling out.
I don't think that's accurate, either. NSO Group sold their exploits to several other nation-states, seemingly without much (any...?) vetting concerning the ethics of their government.
> seemingly without much (any...?) vetting concerning the ethics of their government
I’m not trusting in ethics. I’m trusting in commerce.
MIE should drastically reduce both the production rate and lifetime of zero days. That, in turn, means a focus on maximising profit per vulnerability versus process line.
You should know how this goes by now. It's not like this is the first time Apple introduced an old technology but marketed it like they invented sliced bread. I give their marketing team credit.
I think miniaturizing it to fit into a modern cellphone adds a few complexities that make it pretty different from the heat pipes and vapor chambers that existed in the 70s.
Wrong. The vast majority of Apple fans don't care about Android. I never see "Apple fans" going in threads about random Android stuff and talking about it. On the opposite, I see a lot of Android users complain and talk in every single videos regarding anything Apple on YouTube.
I will preface this with: Apple is _far_ from perfect, sometimes they even fail the “good” bar and I have serious issues with the direction they are going on some products/software. However, I see them as the lessor of two evils. I understand you might not agree, that’s just the conclusion I’ve come to.
> Wrong. The vast majority of Apple fans don't care about Android.
This is my experience as well. I prefer Apple products but I have Android phones/tablets (test devices) and know there are aspects where Android is better.
That said, I have some friends who make it their life mission to mention any Apple/iPhone failing to me. I just don’t get it. I literally never bring it up, or if I bring up anything Apple related it’s just me excited about a new device I got, never in the context of “look how much better it is than Android”. Even then, I’ve learned to temper my excitement lest they see it as an opportunity to tell me all the problems/issues they have with it. I don’t follow Android news closely, I don’t share “gotcha’s” about the hardware/os, etc.
It reminds me this scene in Mad Men [0], I literally do not think about Android or Android users but I know a couple Android users who seem to obsess over Apple products/users in a way I cannot relate to and do not understand. I can bet any negative Apple news will be relayed to me by them, I literally could not care less about the Android ecosystem issues (of which I see many).
My experience is very similar to yours. I am the biggest Apple critic I personally know (don’t get me started on Tim Cook) though I don’t even share a tenth of it because I don’t want to bother my non-technical friends. But I do use a Mac and an iPhone because I prefer them to the alternatives. If I had my way, several things about those products and the company would be different, but at a certain point I had to make a choice and get on with my life.
Still, I have found several people who are outright Apple haters and can’t fathom that anyone who uses their products is anything but a brainwashed puppet. These people talk about Apple more than their most ardent fans. It’s an irrational amount of hate I only ever see from meat eaters who hate vegetarians.
A while back I had a friend who (by choice) uses both a Mac and Android describe to me what they disliked about the iPhone when they used one for a few minutes, in a tone that sounded like personal criticism and disappointment. What do I care? It has nothing to do with me, the products I use aren’t a part of my identity.
Another friend, one who uses Windows and Android, used to grill me about Apple on every chance. I mostly ignored it, but eventually just explained: “Look, it’s not that I think Apple is flawless. On the contrary, I think they have plenty of flaws. But I have tried many operating systems (he, on the other hand, always lived on Windows and Android) and Apple’s are the ones which fit what I need to do the least badly”. To his credit, he understood and never again touched the subject.
My philosophy regarding operating systems, text editors, and other subjective sources of flame wars is pretty simple: Use whatever makes you happy and works for you. I don’t care what that is, as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else. If you ask me a question or an opinion, I’ll try to answer it as truthfully and with as much relevancy as possible for you. I’ll tell you if there’s something I think you may benefit from knowing, but you control the conversation. But if you just want to ignorantly gush about my very informed picks, I’m not interested. Live and let live.
This always gets me. I, as an Apple user, have more vitriolic and in-depth criticisms against Apple than any Android user I know. When Apple haters start their rants, it’s always one of a few superficial talking points that are nowhere near the actual biggest issues of the company or its devices.
As someone who uses both sides (android phone, mac book and a few other apple products), I'll shit on everything that needs to be shat on.
Samsung's new notification bubble that is laggy, gets in the way and is hard to dismiss without launching the app it was for? Moronic.
Apple's "superior UX" of app installs via app store, oh wait but to uninstall it, you have to go to finder and delete it aka breaking the UX flow (should be same place). Idiotic.
Apple do make some of the best laptops tho, the m series is great, best touchpad imo.
For all these things it just sucks that all the companies suck. Focus is on shareholders and growth across every domain now. There's a reason companies can chuck billions at the AI bubble for fun - which is hilarious and all those billions and they still haven't solved problems with models that have been solved locally, got the vibe coders on it I guess.
It extends beyond videos. I have a friend that works at Apple. In social gatherings, he'll be vague about where he works, to avoid having to hear people defending their Android phones and shitting on Apple. I thought he was exaggerating, but then he showed me. It's super weird.
I think you are exaggerating how much people care about apple outside US. Apple is popular but Samsung, Xiaomi etc are also very dominant in other markets.
Tell me when was the last time you heard boomers talk about Samsung. Never happened. Now how many times has nana mentioned "the iPhone" specifically?
Also not from the US, I live in Thailand. Everyone wants an iPhone. Those who can't afford it buy Oppo, etc.
Samsung may be "strong" in Europe but it's just because it's colorful and/or cheaper. You live in the HN bubble if you think that people care about specs and not brands/price. The choice is generally "Either Apple or whatever else in my budget"
> The choice is generally "Either Apple or whatever else in my budget"
Lol dude, stop acting like you know what's happening in my part of the world. People only care about apple because all major news outlets are payed by apple to talk about it when they hold their yearly sales pitch.
People don't act like this with any other product/manufacturer etc.
Not everyone wants an iPhone in Germany. It is not in the least like everyone who can afford it gets one and the others Android. Like in most high income countries, the money for an iPhone is available or can be scrounged together for the vast majority of people.
Phone usage is getting more intense as we move from mere passive consumption to having them as creative (compute) device. "Heat" is sort of reflection of that.
I want to see more optimization to reduce the heat from both hardware as in this case and in software side as well. I guess it is easier to show enhancements about hardware made to address something such as heat or processing but comparatively difficult or abstract to show software optimizations?
From a keynote perspective, I guess showing software optimizations is less cinematic and not everyone can appreciate them as opposed to new or beautiful looking hardware.
I guess? But vapor chambers are mostly good where space is a premium and where passive (non-powered) cooling is enough.
I'm guessing for EV batteries, better options exist since you obviously have power. Although sometimes vapor chambers are used in conjunction with active cooling.
Vapor chambers and heat pipes are exceptional at moving heat from a relatively small part of them to distribute it around the whole.
This is because the heat dumps into a liquid which is concentrated at the heat source, but as soon as it evaporates it fills the volume in which it’s contained. Also it’s because the evaporation process itself sucks out heat at a rate that’s orders of magnitude faster than via conduction, convection, or radiation alone.
They do not cool though. They rely on the fact that the heat source is relatively small and that something else can pull heat out of them fast enough to re-condense the liquid (and since they distribute the heat that cooling can attach anywhere or everywhere — this is like an embarrassingly parallel problem in software).
In a battery pack there is a lot of surface area that gets relatively and evenly hot, and little room to extract it between the cells. This would likely result in even heating around the heat pipe, which would tend to evaporate all of the liquid inside and do nothing but raise its overall temperature after an initial delay.
What it potentially could be used for is to draw heat out of the battery pack and up to some place where better airflow were possible, or for some active cooling system to extract the heat, but there are problems with scaling up like that (in typical heat pipes they manufacture wicking inner layers to draw the water back even against gravity).
At the points they could be used it’s likely significantly cheaper and easier to control some air or liquid cooling loop through the batteries.
Phones are ideal because a tiny little chip is producing almost all of the heat. It’s not even a lot, it’s just in a small area. Temperature goes up when heat can’t escape, so in this case, spreading the heat around even a few square inches can be a major factor in keeping down the temperature of the CPU/GPU.
Contrast this to EV batteries which are huge and produce evenly distributed heat already; there just isn’t the same value when things are big enough to add cooling systems, when cooling systems are necessary anyway, and when the heat pipe or vapor chamber just adds another piece too the system.
Last night I encountered a 3 min+ ad on YT about the construction of the iPhone 17 Pro. A few seconds were devoted to the cooling system. I watched the whole thing. It was better than the video it interrupted.
https://youtu.be/_-AS5DtDeqs?si=rTfubRDArVupqREt
Watching that video, the first thought I have is "So much engineering and I still need to buy a phone case with my new phone?"
I'm guessing phone cases are still pretty much required if you drop your phone once or twice a month onto cement/asphalt/marble/etc from pocket height.
I would be really curious to hear the internal debate at Apple wrt design tradeoffs + durability. E.g. how much of the iPhone design is only possible because Apple is assuming the average person will have a case on their phone.
I wouldn't be surprised if the typical consumer would be more impressed by "No Case Required iPhone" compared to "Skinniest and lightest iPhone yet!".
Cases are great because everyone can get one that matches their risk level and frequency of drops.
Having a sacrificial outer layer that I can replace for $10 is also preferable to letting the $1000 phone take the damage.
Yeah, I never understand these caseless discussions.
I went caseless once since I didn't realize my case would arrive a week after I bought the phone.
The phone was slippery (couldn't temporarily rest it on my knee), and I found myself inspecting the restaurant/bar table any time I put the phone down after that one night I placed it right into a puddle of beer condensation and some mysterious food that got in the mic on the back of the phone and grossed me out.
The phone could be indestructible to drops and it still wouldn't solve those issues.
The caseless argument is that a multi-thousand dollar device shouldn't be so fragile that you MUST wrap it in plastic to be in any way functional.
A $1k phone SHOULD NOT be a frictionless glass prism. It should not skate away from you ob smooth surfaces. It should not be destroyed by falling 3 inches onto a hard surface. It should have some durability inherent to it.
But instead apple spends billions of dollars making phones even more fragile and it's everyone's problem. We now have to spin up factories processing plastic into custom cases, and throw out all the old plastic cases and the older, more functional phones.
The argument is that phones could (and should) be inherently more robust and durable all on their own. It should not be a hard requirement for you to go out and buy your own case just for the phone to survive any level of daily use.
If they made phones out of plastic instead of glass, this wouldn't be an issue. Plastic backed phones almost always have a texture and when they don't even smooth plastic offers more friction. Plastic phones don't slide away like they're on ice. They don't shatter like my Note 10 did when it slid out of my pocket two inches to the ground. They also don't usually self destruct when you repair them.
The caseless argument isn't that cases suck, it's that we MUST use cases because phones intentionally suck. A phone is not a functional object, it's artistic ego masturbation.
But didn't I just make a case (heh) that it's not only about drop fragility?
It's a cheap sacrificial shell that adds utility. My examples were non-slip and grime from a public table. Maybe add scratches and impact damage in there too because every material is susceptible to that, and avoiding them helps me resell it.
There's no way to build that into a phone. I don't want rubber non-slip bumpers on my phone or a built-in clawed up plastic shell when I can have them in a swappable shell.
I go caseless just because of sheer amount of bulk cases add, even the "thin" ones. It significantly impacts how easy the device is to hold and pocket.
The Air I might consider putting a bumper case on since its thinness offsets the bulk increase, but it's specifically made to be resilient to drops so it's a coin toss even with that.
I barely drop my phone though, it happens maybe twice a year, usually on carpet. In the last decade my phones might've had a run-in with concrete or pavement 2-3 times, tops.
I go caseless just because of sheer amount of bulk cases add, even the "thin" ones.
That's why I use an aramid fiber case from AliExpress. It's paper-thin, but has saved my phone from more drops than can remember. I used to go caseless, but since trying out aramid I don't see any practical benefit to caselessness.
Interesting. I tried an ultra-thin case before (though it was plastic). I dropped my phone one time with it and it shattered. The drop was pretty unforgiving. It was from head-height onto a thick marble floor. In 18 years of owning iPhones, this was my only catastrophic drop.
Which one do you recommend?
I think you probably can't go too wrong just searching for 600D aramid + the name of your phone and picking one from a seller with good reviews, but the specific one I have is this: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805920169643.html.
Before that, I was using this one from Thinborne: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CHLF8FD7. For all intents and purposes, they're functionally identical. I slightly preferred the style of the AliExpress one (camera glass cover + no logo), but the main reason I went for AliExpress when I needed a replacement was that it was half the price of the Thinborne. (The AliExpress one has since gone up ~$10, but the Thinborne one doesn't appear to be available at all anymore.)
Thanks!
My case is AppleCare+.
That seems wasteful
$120/year on an iPhone 17, or $140/year on Air, Pro, and Pro Max
Even for one year that's more than I'd spend to avoid using a phone case, and if I keep it for five years again that's $700.
There are other benefits to AppleCare (a case doesn't cover theft or loss) but I'm not very worried about any of them.
AppleCare One is about $240/year and covers three devices. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/07/apple-introduces-appl...
Across many Apple devices, the only thing I've had break in the last 5 years is a watch that is 5 years old, and if I were picking which 3 devices to put on an Apple One plan that wouldn't even have been one of them (Mac, iPad, and phone all cost more). I think I'll try my luck without it.
AppleCare One has been a string of horror stories. Can’t even properly handle you having one Mac with multiple accounts, and you can’t go back to the plans you previously had if they’re discontinued, leaving you with worse service for more money.
I mean its wasteful in terms of the energy/co2 required to service your phone replacements. Wasting resources unnecessarily.
Given the unlikelihood that you need it serviced, it’s significantly less wasteful than a case made of plastic and shipped globally.
It depends on how clumsy you are. Some people just are. Sounds like you're not. Lucky for you.
It pays for itself the minute you have to replace a device. It’s insurance. The entire insurance industry is wasteful, by your argument. And like yeah it is. However most people prefer to amortize financial risk. That peace of mind is valuable.
I don’t disagree. I’m a nihilist I guess
I just use one of those pop out nubbin grip things that were popular like ten years ago.
This, and the options you probably would hate on the phone stock.
For my 17 Pro I got a case with a kickstand. If the kickstand breaks off I get a new $16 case. If it was built into the phone I’d possibly need a new backplate depending on the damage. Probably not $16 to fix. A built in kick stand would certainly become a love it or hate it feature based on how people use the thing.
And there are people out there who are going to be huge fans of the Flower Power iMac. They can get just such a case and Apple doesn’t have to take the loss on that given 2025 design aesthetic .
Yup for both counts
I don't see what's the big deal honestly
Some people just seem to like making things harder on themselves
Meanwhile if I drop my phone (which I'm very careful, so it was probably once or twice and not from too high) it's really nbd
You usually just need to replace the front or back glass, which is $30 with Apple Care or $60 for both, not the entire iPhone. I crack mine about once a year.
How do you replace just the glass with AppleCare? They always tell you it’s a full phone replace if the glass is broken, unless it’s changed recently (which would be welcome).
https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair
Ever thought about getting a case and lowering your carbon footprint?
Are the $10 "rugged defender style cases" found online actually as protective for drops as the $80 actual Otterbox Defender branded case?
I really wonder, seems like maybe, and might be worth looking into. If so, that would be fantastic and would make the case round to 2 orders of magnitude less costly than the device, instead of just 1.
We call these the “use case scenarios”
Pretty crazy concept; I wonder if someone could ever figure out something for a replaceable battery.
Magnetically attachable external batteries exist. Apple basically came up with the concept (MagSafe).
But you’ll only ever see the “sacrificial layer,” and never see “real layer,” right? So are you only concerned about protecting against major functional breakage? Or maybe only concerned about resale value?
> Watching that video, the first thought I have is "So much engineering and I still need to buy a phone case with my new phone?"
You can buy a $400m yacht and still need buoys when you dock it.
Unless you want a phone that comes with a pre-installed rubber bumper around the outside, or we have some humanity altering discoveries in transparent materials science, you’re always going to have a case. Gravity and concrete are undefeated.
Saying "gravity and concrete are undefeated" is not explanatory.
In 25+ years of carrying a naked mobile phone everywhere I've never broken one. My lifestyle theoretically exposes me to significantly greater risk of damage than the average person too. I view phones as semi-disposable devices, so I take no special care or precautions.
I am eternally baffled as to why people need cases on their phones. The observation that many people do seem to break them frequently isn't an explanation. I can't wrap my head around the degree of clumsiness and carelessness that would seem to be required to explain this phenomenon.
> I am eternally baffled as to why people need cases on their phones. > I view phones as semi-disposable devices, so I take no special care or precautions.
Have you considered that for other people phones are a significant financial investment?
That isn't explanatory. If they cared about the financial investment then they wouldn't be regularly smashing their phones in the first place because it is clearly possible to do without a case. It is a side effect of behavior.
Not always. Sometimes pockets aren’t deep enough, sometimes chairs are too low so that your pockets are angled downwards. As with anything in life it’s rather foolish to think you can control everything, so you add preventative measures on top of active avoidance.
Shit happens. Putting a case on my phone improves the likelihood that my $1200 phone doesn’t shatter. People have kids, animals, and make silly little mistakes that can have massively expensive consequences.
I’m not regularly smashing my phone or especially careless with it, but in a year I’ve seen it take a dozen or so drops and I’m glad it had a case on it when it did.
Or losing access to your phone for a day or two can range from a mild inconvenience to job–threatening.
Like some other people said, I drop my phones weekly. Some on wood, some on carpet, and some on concrete. It is so bad that as I have my latest phone for 2 years, I have run across 2 cases, and about to need a 3rd one or go for an upgrade (and buy a new case anyways). I have shattered the glass / screen once but that was a long time back. Yes I am clumsy and I would call myself that even before someone else told me so.
I am baffled why people wouldn't put a case on their phones?
Thickness? There are a lot of thin cases that will do the job.
Heavy? Better to invest more on arm exercises if that weight is dealbreaker
Status symbol to show off? There are better things to buy if you are in that sort of thing.
The phone looks much nicer without a case. And in my 10+ ceaseless years, I’ve only damaged my phone once (and, in that case, I doubt that a thin silicone case would have saved me). And in that one case, I just needed to replace the front glass. Cost about $40 IIRC.
So why would I use a case?
Your mileage may vary, though, if you have kids, are a woman (fewer/shallower pockets), etc.
The mistake you’re making is extrapolating your own situation and experience to the rest of the world.
Just because you’ve never damaged a mobile phone, doesn’t mean that no-one else has. Mistakes happen, and modern mobile phones are fragile and dense.
What a trivial thing to be “eternally baffled” by
It is likely a textbook case of the paradox seen in many domains where humans take extra safety precautions as a license to be reckless such that it creates more damage than if the extra safety precautions were never taken.
How do you explain the contradiction of people who go through the pretense of protecting their phone then engaging in behavior that somehow smashes it regularly in a way that demonstrably cannot be explained by normal usage? There is an entire population of no-case-enjoyers who don't smash their phones despite the lack of extra protection.
How is the average reader to know whether you're an entirely average person or an eight-sigma indoors dweller who never goes hiking, never asks another person to take a photo of you, never does any sports...
For a lot of people, a phone is a major purchase. Why not throw a $30 case on to protect the $1000 device?
That is not relevant to the question of how people constantly break something that isn't particularly breakable. If they cared about the cost of the phone, I would expect them to demonstrate slightly less wanton disregard for it such that they routinely smash it. I also know plenty of people that regularly break their phones even with a case.
At some point, you have to conclude people don't actually care if they smash their phone based on how frequently they do it.
As I said, it's baffling.
You must have excellent coordination. Others, like me, are clumsy. Its certainly not wanton disregard that results in me dropping my phone. It just feels like it slides out of my hands sometimes.
I'd have to live my life in an unsustainable state of vigilance and care to not drop things.
Heck, even when I think I'm being careful (eg carrying a very full mug or glass), I'm liable to focus on what I'm doing to the point of messing it all up due to lack of awareness (eg keeping my glass nice and still until I bump my elbow into the door frame and spill some of my drink).
It also does not seem to be improving wit age.
I drop my phone occasionally. I don't think there is much evidence that I am uniquely non-clumsy. Phones aren't that fragile, particularly these days.
Some of it may be differences in skin. I have fairly dry skin and an aluminum phone is slippery as hell. I put mine in a case not for protection from drops - I almost never drop it - but to prevent those drops by giving me a little grip. YMMV
It’s really not. I one time had a phone fall out of my pocket while getting out of my truck, and literally hit my foot on its way down which propelled it face up into the bottom of my front tire which shattered the screen. There was absolutely nothing I could do to stop it, and there’s no reason I’d have ever thought it’d just fall out. I probably got out of that truck in the exact same way for 2 years and the phone never fell out.
The fact you’re baffled that accidents happen makes me question if you’re trolling or literally live in a bubble.
Saying it's baffling is not explanatory. And whilst you say a lot you have failed to cursorsily discuss mitigating effects of insurance.
Yeah I guess not everyone is perfect like you lmfao
If I was going to cover up my phone with a plastic case, I wouldn’t buy a $1,000 device when most of that money is spent on high quality industrial design and appearance.
Having bought from both sides of the aisle, I couldnt give two shits about the industrial design or appearance. As long as the screen works, and all the hardware and software inside does its job, it could be covered in giant dongs for all I care.
iPhones are expensive devices. You don't have a choice if you are in the Apple ecosystem.
It depends on where you drop it. Dropping phones on pavement is easy mode. One mistake over coarse gravel and you're pretty fucked even without much height.
Gravel absorbs more energy than pavement, I don't see how it is worse.
You're tangled up in misapplied abstractions. Stop doing math and jump on gravel in bare feet.
What is it about coarse gravel that makes it a phone killer? Is it because there are more edges?
Scratches
For some time I was like you. But then things happened, for example I put the phone on an outdoor restaurant table, someone kicked the table, phone fell down onto the metal base of the table, screen cracked. There isn't really anything I could do to save it short of not carrying it around, or using a case.
>There isn't really anything I could do to save it short of not carrying it around,
That's my go-to right there.
Good for you. How do you order a taxi without a phone?
Never thought of that, last time I used a taxi it was a dial phone so it has never been a consideration for decades.
I'm old enough to where I won't be forgetting any time soon how excellent things can be without any phone at all, much less cellular. Land lines were usually too expensive for students but people weren't crying about doing without.
I do bring the flatphone with me regularly, just not most of the time, and only when I have a strong anticipation of wanting or even needing it.
In a restaurant I didn't even like pagers when they were a thing.
Pagers might have been anti-social with their piercing interruptions, but least they weren't as annoying to carry around as an oversized internet-connected device.
And definitely not as anti-social as a phone having Facebook with a human being strung along attached by the finger.
I grew up without mobile phones. Now in 2025 it's just much more practical to carry the phone with me. On the bike I use it as a bike computer and navigation, plus it's great to have for emergencies. When out in the town, any town, it's again a navigation, I can pay parking, public transport or call a taxi. And much much more. Nobody forces me to use social networks, so I don't, and I completely agree with you it sucks to see people sit in restaurants and spend most of the time looking at their phones.
2 unconventional reasons:
- hide the fact that you have the latest and greatest - use it to tuck in receipts or parking tickets between phone and case :)
a downside with the iphone is that some buttons, esp the camera button, are harder to use
> In 25+ years of carrying a naked mobile phone everywhere I've never broken one.
If you’re going to include the pre smart phone era of mobile phones in the discussion, it would be nice to let people know
Keep in mind that the Sony-Ericsson smartphones from 25 years ago did not fail to advance as time marched on.
By the time the iPhone was revealed the Sonys at the time made Apples look pretty dumb by comparison.
Ah, yes I do think the older generation of phones were more durable. My point was that the technology had a significant change and there's at least 2 different generations of products called "phones" in that time period and comparing them against each other on durability is not a reasonable argument
It's not a matter of durability, it's basic "smartness".
Sony had regular ordinary quick-change batteries, at least their own Memory Sticks for removable storage before they ended up settling for SD cards, plus the essential USB connection in addition to bluetooth to connect you to your PC to at least use the PC OS to handle the file management of the phone.
And there was always the PC software suite for Sony owners so you could get your PC online before there were hotspots, and you could do texting and make calls from the PC, update the phone, install phone apps from the PC, etc. You could consider the phone a peripheral of the PC, or the PC a peripheral of the phone. And integration was supposed to continue getting better from there.
Like a normal smartphone way before the iPhone appeared, which the iPhone had none of the established hallmarks of smartness, except that it was on the internet. Plus it was locked down in annoying ways never before seen.
Jobs was pretty intense with his reality distortion efforts, he got people to believe until this day that smartphones didn't exist until he had success with it. What it really was was that established smartphones were about $500 and almost nobody was going to pay that so naturally they were not flying off the shelf any more than they ever had been. It was actually widely considered pretty stupid to pay that much for a phone at the time unless you were deeply in need of those connected features.
He convinced enough people that phones had never been so "smart" since there were so few having any experience with them. But why stop there? While he was at it he got his fans to pay almost $1000 too.
> Unless you want a phone that comes with a pre-installed rubber bumper around the outside…
I had one of those rugged Android phones before my current iPhone, I think it was the Ulefone Armor X7 Pro. I happened to drop it a few times, worst was from about 1.7 meters up while doing pull ups (wired headphones and busted pants pocket zipper) on concrete. Thought that it’d be a goner for sure, but no, just scratched up the corner of the frame, it had a soft and rubbery quality to it (at least compared to regular plastic).
It was actually a really nice phone, good battery life and everything, except for the part where the battery eventually turned into a pillow and since it’s not exactly easily used serviceable I just moved on.
Since, I started to like iOS but my ideal setup functionality wise would still be something one step closer to a brick with a big battery and a protective exterior (glueing a power bank to my current iPhone case would be a bit silly though).
> Unless you want a phone that comes with a pre-installed rubber bumper around the outside, or we have some humanity altering discoveries in transparent materials science, you’re always going to have a case. Gravity and concrete are undefeated.
But they are defeated. By plastics, no bumper required. This is why the Nokia Windows phones felt so indestructible, polycarbonate is an amazing material for a phone body.
Plenty of plastic phone have been broken - I dropped and broke plastic blackberries, Nokias, and startacs.
Since almost everyone uses cases anyway, I don't understand why phones are all metal and glass. I want a phone with a light plastic body. Pixel 4a 5G was my favourite phone, the same weight as iPhone Air. The new Pixel 10 is already over 200g.
I don’t use a case. It’s fine.
Neither do i, i drop it often, throw it about and its fine. Everyone goes mad and is surprised, but whats the point if buying a nice phone then covering it in a case.
Usability. Phones without a case are very easy to lose grip on. Cases often help with that.
> Unless you want a phone that comes with a pre-installed rubber bumper around the outside
Sure, why not? If there's going to be a rubber bumper anyways, why wouldn't I want the manufacturer to ship it?
I’d rather have it be a separate, replaceable product.
You don’t leave the bumpers out at all times. The decking and furniture are all built from suitable materials to not need additional protection. Phone cases are an anomaly.
I disagree that phones are unique in being fragile without protection, what is unique is that we want to carry them around all day without treating them as delicate. The things we eat off and drink out of often can't be dropped from waste height onto the floor without breaking, the front of the microwave or oven isn't unbreakable glass, nor a laptop, or... plenty of things. We're just OK treating them all as things to avoid dropping.
> I disagree that phones are unique in being fragile without protection.
Not sure who you are replying to because I didn’t say that.
I would rather wax my entire body than put a case on the phone
You can have both. YOLO.
Good point but those are called fenders. Buoys are some else.
I think you'd be surprised by how durable the newer phones are, especially the iPhone Air. It's hard to completely protect a glass screen from shattering since its a crystalline material encased in a metal enclosure that is more likely to dent than flex, absorb the impact and return to it's shape, but they keep getting better and I think most people could go without a case if they really wanted to.
If you're curious about just how durable the iPhone Air is, take a look at the latest Jerry Rig Everything video where it exceeded his typical scratch test resits and he was unable to bend it with his hands.
https://youtu.be/sQ56ve39l2I?si=XOgAtnlAtOwO4Lln
For those who prefer text over video:
> Typical smartphone glass starts scratching at a level 6 on the Mohs scale of hardness, but Zack’s picks barely left marks even at 7. “Apple ruined my line,” he joked, noting that Corning’s new Ceramic Shield 2 is a big improvement over last year’s iPhone 16 lineup, even besting the Galaxy S25 Ultra’s Gorilla Armor 2, which showed visible scratches at a level 6 when it was put to the same test earlier this year.
and
> Using a crane scale in his garage, he applied direct pressure in the center of the iPhone Air until it finally gave way. The iPhone Air endured up to 216 pounds (~98kg) of force before its front glass finally cracked and the titanium frame flexed past the point of recovery. Surprisingly, the back glass came out unscathed, and the phone was still powered on and usable in the end.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/The-iPhone-Air-bends-in-JerryR...
glass can either scratch or resist impact. It's not that they have a secret alien technology, just basic engineering tradeoffs. (and maybe slightly better than average quality control, which today is basically just not shipping known bad production lots)
Also, i find it nice that they decided to honor they allegiance pledge to the regime with an Orange model. It was a nice touch.
I’ve been caseless for a while and have had a couple of drops and the phone has been fine. When I eventually upgrade my phone, I’ll probably stay caseless, or add minimal protection. Mainly cause if the increasingly rare catastrophic drop happens, it’d be unpleasant to deal with.
I do like some cases for their design elements, I might use one to just further personalize my phone.
I have been caseless forever. If I drop the phone and it breaks I’ll bring it to repairs (I used to do it myself but it’s more complicated now and I don’t have the time anymore anyways).
Well, yes, we all know that you can go caseless if paying for repairs or new phones is within your budget.
The point of a case is to avoid having to pay for those repairs.
Aren't iPhones expensive to repair? Like $100 minimum for just about anything. That's significant to recover from one incident.
I usually drop my phone 3-5 times a month. Inexpensive cases and screen protectors have saved me quite a lot of hassle.
Fewer repairs saves time, produces less waste, and preserves more of the resale value.
I have AppleCare+ so it’s $30. I’ve had my phone stolen way more often than needing anything repaired because it’s caseless.
To answer both comments at the same time, I very rarely drop my phone. It happened 3 or 4 times, from pocket height, the screen stayed intact. Got a few scratches but that’s all (it’s the mini).
Have you heard about cases? They prevent damage
They are also making the phone bigger, heavier, uglier and just not a joy to use anymore.
>I have been caseless forever.
Almost the same here. We got new identical phones in 2023 for a good deal because they were made in 2022.
She breaks hers fairly regularly and myself not at all so far.
I guess they are considered obsolete already because in our complex there was apparently someone operating a cellphone shop who was discarding a couple dozen assorted brand new cases for this exact phone!
Fancy ones, tough ones, light ones, some with kickstands, quite a variety.
None of which I could abide for very long. She loves the most fashionable one.
Then one day I found something I could use that was made of a space-age fiber I have been long acquainted with, rayon.
It was an ankle sock, and it was not one of hers.
Pretty much useless by itself as footwear, so it existed for a time as orphan laundry before I tried it.
Uncased phone doesn't fall out when you handle it upside down, but slips out real easy when you want it to. Plus you can see who's calling through the fiber without having to remove it beforehand.
It surprised me that people seem to show more interest than they do for more fashionable alternatives that are not even footwear at all :)
i was for a while too. but the shift back to aluminum does not bode well for caseless.
deep scratches are trivial and drops will immediately lead to heavy dents. that being said the screen itself is incredibly tough so it will be usable.
before (stainless / titanium) you could go caseless without concern. the most i ever had happen was a little crack on the back
The aluminum helps protect the glass - it absorbs the shock.
I don't know what it is about iPhones but I find them to get damage/chips/scratches super easy compared to the Android phones I've used.
Maybe the new phones are better, but I was quite disappointed when I noticed how easy the paint came off. What's the point of a pretty phone if you're gonna need me to put a case around it?
Your phone was painted?
Phone cases are not required. I’ve been using an iPhone 12 for nearly five years now — and yes, I’ve carelessly dropped it plenty of times, onto very hard surfaces.
It’s got a couple of tiny dents in it, but the screen is untouched and it works like new. I’ve never used a case.
In the iPhone 4 era, if you were unlucky enough to drop your phone even once onto a table the screen will have almost certainly instantly shattered into a million pieces. But that’s far from true now; things have come a long way. The ‘No Case Required iPhone’ is already here.
The titanium iPhones, at least, are nearly impervious to scratches when dropped on concrete or asphalt from a reasonable height. I “scientifically” test this pretty often.
Because the iPhone 15 pro was significantly lighter than previous pro models, I wanted to avoid a case to get the most out of this improvement. However, I wouldn’t have even experimented with not using a case if it weren’t for the applecare+ plans that are reasonable. I’ve been surprised by the durability to the extent that I should probably discontinue the applecare+ plan.
The aluminum models might not be as durable. Compared to phones 20 or even 30 years ago that didn’t need a case, I suppose a significant difference is the density as much as the total weight or the hardness of the materials.
Phones 20 years ago didn’t have expansive glass-covered screens. The biggest I had (blackberry curve) was fairly plasticky and quite sturdy, when dropped it might sometimes eject the battery compartment cover but otherwise survived in perfect working order. And of course Nokias were almost indestructible.
Good point. I did have a Kyocera 6035 which I dropped and broke the screen on (years past its useful life) but that was an exotic device.
Yeah people forget how nearly indestructible the old Nokia candy bar phones were.
I mean, they were pretty trivial electronic components with a tiny screen wrapped in a kg of plastic. Like, what even could go wrong with them?
But modern smartphones are anything like that, and people do like the more premium materials on the outside (and it sort of makes sense - if you have a device that you are using 24/7, it might as well "feel" more premium), so I don't think it's a fair comparison
How do you propose making a device that people wouldn't feel the need to put a case on? You could make the whole thing out of rubber but that's still going to take cosmetic damage that people want to protect the device from. You could make it easy to replace that rubber... but at what point is that not just functionally the same as a case?
One way would be to have an accelerometer detect that the phone is falling, and have tiny spring-actuated bumpers, wires, or feet extend from the corners of the phone to catch its fall. Little stainless-steel or Nitinol wires would do great.
Here's a patent for the idea which just expired this year: https://patents.google.com/patent/US7059182B1/
Apple also patented some versions of this, although I think not as nice as the 2005 one: https://patents.google.com/patent/US9571150B2
Back when the early iPods actually contained a spinning hard drive, they had something similar. If it detected a fall, it would quickly park the hard drive to avoid damage.
Same for ThinkPads.
And MacBook Pros.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_Motion_Sensor
Though I don't recall iPods having that feature, nor can I find anything online supporting that claim.
Macs had it as a machine feature. All others had it in the drives themselves.
That is not true
Lenovo/IBM have a Free Fall Sensor in the laptop.
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/glossary/ffs/
Can't wait until the sensor is hacked and it becomes a remote controlled implement of pain.
I bought a cheap(£150 at the time) phone 3-4 years ago called "Ulefone" where in a sense the 'case' is built in to the phone. It is marketed as a phone for handymen or outdoor functions.
It is a bit bigger with protective shell around it is bulky, but withstood all the drops that a typical phone would break. There is some flaring around the screen and camera that it prevents most of scratches. The back has some sort of hard rubber but it held up well.
I've only had to replace the screen protector within 3 years as the scuffs and marks made it difficult to see in well-lit environment.
> How do you propose making a device that people wouldn't feel the need to put a case on?
If the screen were reasonably scratch + shatter proof, I think most people wouldn't feel the need to wear a case.
I don't use a case or screen protectors. My 15 Pro frequently falls on the floor. The back shattered on multiple occasions, but even then never became a cut hazard. The screen remains pristine.
Did you know there are cases that will prevent that damage and avoid the massive carbon footprint associated with the repairs you were fortunate enough to get?
What repairs?
That's been the case for several years now. Gone caseless with iPhone X, 12, and 13 Pros for years now and have gotten some scratches to the sides and a small crack on the back glass here or there, but no significant screen scratches or breaks. Some scuffing around the edges is it.
Last time I broke the front screen of a phone was an HTC Evo.
A few years back I fumbled my iPhone so badly that when I tried to catch it I knocked it further up in the air. It flew up dropped all the way down to the concrete subway platform I was on, landing face down. It was loud and worrisome, but the phone was perfectly fine outside of some scratches on the lip of aluminum around the screen.
So it seems like the screens are not easily broken anymore. Though that event did lead to me using a case on my next phone just to avoid chancing cosmetic damage on it.
I started using cases after having a Pixel 2 XL shatter in a 1 foot drop onto a granite countertop, but started going case-less again with my most recent iPhone 15 Pro (ironically, after the horrible quality Apple case I mistakenly bought with it disintegrated).
It's been a year so far of completely non-cautious use and my general take is:
* The screen still scratches; I leave my phone in my pocket or a bicycle saddle bag and it definitely has some damage. However, it is only visible with the screen off, and it turns out not to bother me a single bit.
* The frame of the phone seems almost invulnerable; even with a case many of my older phones got dinged corners, and this one is perfect.
* Overall, the only functional issue I have had with going caseless has been the propensity for the protruding cameras to pick up dust and fingerprints. I find myself having to wipe them even more frequently than I did when I had a case.
I suspect that a case still would have been a net-positive fiscal investment, I'll probably have to sell this phone in "good" or "fair" condition rather than "factory new" like a phone with a case and glass screen protector for its whole life, so I'll lose $50-$100. But I like using the phone on its own. The side and action buttons finally function as they should and the size benefit is appreciated.
Anyway, I'm now a caseless fan and this makes me very interested in the new Air. I think the need for cases is perhaps overblown and especially in a premium market like high-end iPhones where the consumer probably isn't as sensitive to aftermarket value, no-case isn't as rare or foolish as it would seem. For that reason, I doubt a bit that Apple are assuming the average person has a case on their phone. I'm sure they do focus groups, testing, and have some degree of telemetry to understand the case-vs-no-case debate in detail and I strongly doubt that the conclusion is "we assume there will be a case so we will do X".
The scratches are a feature not a bug. Older iPhones used to scratch way less, but shatter when sneezed at.
Now the glass has “a bit more give” which allows it to bounce back and not break like the super hard ones from before.
I’ve abused my 14 pro for quite a while and it has a lot of scratches, but only when the screen is off, otherwise I don’t really see them. Ironically the always on display helps here …
The titanium frame really is strong. The 17 pro’s aluminum will dent way more easily
I dropped my iPhone 15 Pro Max to my wife's iPhone 14 and it cracked the 14's screen right away. Because of these event, I started going caseless with my 15.
wouldn't a case stop that happening?
Cases can absorb so much stress because they're made of soft materials that degrade over time. I replace mine ~once a year. Such materials aren't really a good match to be built directly into a phone.
> I'm guessing phone cases are still pretty much required if you drop your phone once or twice a month onto cement/asphalt/marble/etc from pocket height.
This hasn’t been true for a while with iPhones. I drop mine about this often, and after a few years it’s a little scratched but otherwise fine.
You must not drop it on the front corners
> I'm guessing phone cases are still pretty much required if you drop your phone once or twice a month onto cement/asphalt/marble/etc from pocket height.
Here's video of a drop test where the new Pro version survived drops to the pavement on its front, back, and side from hip height, then the same three drops from shoulder height, before finally having the front glass fail in the third drop from as high above his head as dude's arms would reach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oof5z3BNTdY
Not exactly super fragile, although the orange finish on the aluminum scuffed up much more easily than the finish they use on titanium frames.
I think the average person wouldn't run into a meaningful problem without a case, maybe a light scratch or two somewhere if they looked closely, it's just the idea they might need a case that leads them to use one. This is probably even more true of screen protectors - which add on to this because they scratch much easier than a phone screen would, making people think "wow, it's a good thing I used a screen protector!" even if it wouldn't have been a problem for them.
Because of the above, I don't think there is anything (reasonable) smartphone manufacturers could do to make people feel like they shouldn't add one just in "case".
I never understood screen protectors. In 15 years I have never used a screen protector on any smartphone, and have also never had any scratches on the screen either.
On average, I keep the same phone for 3-4 years (current phone is an iPhone 11, coming up on 6 years old).
I use a screen protector to prevent wear to the oleophobic coating, which had noticeably degraded on my previous iPhone. I know you can also buy treatments to replace the coating on the screen itself, but I don't know how good they are, and the screen protector is easier to replace if eventually needed.
(I walk a good deal and also bike with the phone in my pocket, so it's possible my phone gets above average wear in this department.)
It’s easy to understand, when the phone accidentally drops on concrete from >1m of height there is a great chance of shattering the glass. It happens to millions of person, myself included, no matter the care it’s an accident that can cost 300$ to repair. 10$ the screen protector is worth it. I guess you’re lucky !
I was only talking about screen protectors, not cases. I've always used some sort of case, primarily around the edges of the phone, to protect against drops. But never one that also put something over the screen.
Never used a screen protector, have been using iPhones since iPhone 3G, never shattered or cracked a screen.
I started using a silicone case with iPhone 6S as found it was slippy. Have a leather case for iPhone 15 Pro but considering going naked again.
You are really lucky. I broke several screens and my wife also (on 2nd day of iPhone 6s it fell into concrete). Since then I’ve never been without a screen protector and I break it at least 3 times a year. Maybe the screen wouldn’t have broke and the SP did ? I won’t take the risk given the price of the SP vs the pain of changing a screen. The last time I tried to go naked the 13 pro max fell from my pocket because there is zero grip and I had a dent on the border
What does a screen protector have to do with the border getting dented?
Sorry I meant the border of the screen protector and the frame as well in the fall. Maybe the screen would have survived but phones are so slippery that without protections it’s a big risk
If you want to do a trade in every 1, 2, or 3 years then scratches or damage to the phone can decrease the value on the old phone.
I tried rocking no case and broke the screen which isn’t a huge deal but required attention, downtime, and the phone didn’t work the same way after repair.
It's up to you whether you think you need it.
I'm a person who tends to accidentally throw my phone around a lot, and don't use a case (cause the added bulk makes me throw it around even more). Often on ceramic tiles, often with added velocity from me walking or hitting it in the air while trying to catch it.
My iPhone 13 Pro still survived 3 years, and only had some scratches and bruises on its corners, but nothing broke (still in use, by someone else now). My iPhone 16 Pro after a year of that same treatment is almost unblemished (a small bruise on one of the corners).
These are, in practice, extremely resistant to damage.
After iPhone 14, they are remarkably durable in any fall situation.
My 14 pro flew from its mount while driving 80km on a motorbike in Vietnam and bounced about on the asphalt, when I eventually retrieved it, it had a few small scratches, and a crack at the back, which I “fixed” by just adding a case.
Honestly I was incredibly surprised, previous phones I owned would shatter to bits if the fell from the bedside table, this guy literally survived a highway toss. Props to the engineers.
I remember that there was a Dilbert comic, back when Apple started releasing models with back-and-front glass, that referred to "a smartphone" as being "BSB," which stood for "Beautiful, Slippery, Brittle." The idea was that buyers were encouraged to not get a case (thus, hiding the "beauty"), but it was easy to drop ("slippery"), and easy to break ("brittle").
I don't use a phone case or a screen protector. Examining my phone which is about two years old, there are a few hairline cracks on the back glass, and the front glass is mildly scratched if I hold it at just the right angle to catch the light. I'm sure if I dropped it on concrete at the right height and angle it'd fully crack the screen but generally speaking I haven't needed a case in nearly a decade.
I’ve been carrying an iPhone since the first one - so, almost 20 years?
Have never used a case. I’ve dropped them plenty of times. Only once did I do major damage, and that was to the all-glass rear panel of a 4S. I’ve never broken a screen or had to replace a phone due to damage.
The iPhone is very durable! You don’t need a case. They’re bulky and ugly!
I don't think most people need a bulky case. You can get aramid cases that barely add any thickness, but still protect the phone from dents and scuffs.
No case is great. I’ve taken to slapping a screen protector on my phone with no case. Keeps me from feeling bad about setting it face down.
I don't have experience with iPhones, but I assume they're pretty similar to recent non-foldable Samsung flagships. My S23U has had many falls over the past 2.5 years, been surprisingly fine. Maybe they've finally gotten good enough to survive the typical fall reliably.
I've never used a case, throw my phones in every corner and never cracked the screen. Anecdotally, I see fewer and fewer broken phones with every year, they last.
I haven’t used a case in at least a decade. Why do you think it’s necessary?
Cases are great at protecting phones. Have you heard of them?
> I still need to buy a phone case with my new phone?
…you don’t. I don’t. My phone is scratched here and there, but not in a way that I notice. I used to defend this with my purchasing of insurance, but frankly, I crack the screen now maybe once every 2+ years.
> Apple is assuming the average person will have a case on their phone
I think it is fair to assume that irrespective of the design, most people will case their phones. Leaning into that is fine as long as the phone is still functional without a case. (Which, again, every iPhone in the last decade has been.)
As long as we're doing anecdotes:
For my phones, I use the cheapest most-featureless blackest thinnest TPU cases I can get my hands on.
They tend to [just barely] cover the edges of the glass screen, they're very inexpensive. They never seem to wear out in any appreciable way.
So far, zero broken screens in the ~16 years I've been carrying these pocket computers absolutely everywhere...and I drop them about as often as anyone else does, I suppose.
> functional without a case. (Which, again, every iPhone in the last decade has been.
Agreed they're functional without a case.
Whether it's functional after dropping it face down on the glass onto cement/marble is another question!
I'm not too concerned with cosmetic scratches. The main issue is the screen shattering. And the back of the phone shattering in older models where the back was glass.
> Whether it's functional after dropping it face down on the glass onto cement/marble is another question
Confirming it is. Source: clumsy as hell.
The glass is sturdier and more scratch resistant than it was ten years ago, when I was smashing an iPhone screen a couple times a year with a case.
I have a case, and therefore I don’t crack my screen (or back), ever. When I sell it after upgrading, I can truthfully list it as “like new” (after a battery replacement).
I have an iPhone 13 pro max. Bought it on release, never used a case and it’s still in perfect condition. I don’t drop it once or twice a month though, but definitely dropped it before.
I haven’t used a case in years. The whole premise of your comment is wrong. Cases aren’t required at all. Phones are hella durable.
I would buy a case anyways because I prefer the appearance of my leather case to the plain phone appearance.
With the new thin phones, and unibody metal phones, I hope people start moving towards ultra-thin aramid/kevlar cases. I have one on an S25 Edge and it's a lot different from the fatter phone era. I don't see why you wouldn't, frankly, on the new shatterless iPhones.
AppleCare+ basically makes it so having a case or screen protector isn't a requirement for me. I was actually only using a screen protector for about a year, but what I found was they actually are more fragile than the phone's screen itself. I was going through them every 2-3 months. So about a year ago I stopped using screen protectors as well and have dropped the phone many times like how I dropped it with the screen protector and the screen has been fine.
Sure I have some scratches on the screen, but so what? If the front or back glass shatter, it's $29 to fix.
Probably less environmental impact to replace a protector than the touch-capacitize screen. And don't have to make repair appointments and wait.
> I'm guessing phone cases are still pretty much required if you drop your phone once or twice a month onto cement/asphalt/marble/etc from pocket height.
I mean... yeah? What consumer tech is that resilient? Maybe put a lanyard on the your phone and attach it to your belt, I mean..
They could make a toughbook style phone for people with such habits, but engineering a mainstream device for such resiliency is going to be overkill for most users and cause a lot of tradeoffs in size/cost/features.
Cases aren’t necessary, have not been for a while. They don’t actually protect your screen.
This is a wild statement to make so matter of factly.
Do cases guarantee your screen won't break if you drop your phone? No. Do they dramatically diminish the likelihood of cracked glass in the most common scenario of phone falling on flat concrete? Absolutely.
It’s no longer worth the risk though. You need your phone for so much stuff having it break is extremely inconvenient. And given the price of phones, and the cost of cases and screen protectors, theres no reason not to do it.
I have gone through several sacrificial layers of glass to save several versions of gorilla glass (etc). I have also lost several screens later because I wasn't quick enough in replacing the sacrificial glass.
Some of us are harder on our things than others...
I use a case mostly to provide grip. The bare metal is too slick.
Same. Just a thin rubber strip around the permimeter or something like that to make it a bit easier to hold would probably be all I need. A completely caseless phone is too slippery.
I recall my boss using electrical tape on the edges of his early iPhones.
A phone without a case and popsocket for me is like holding a bar of soap. A $1000+ bar of soap
I use a popsocket on a naked iphone 14 pro and it's great in my experience. I don't think I've dropped it once after going worth this setup.
Most big screen damage happens from things hitting the edge of the phone. Cases prevent this. Also, the edge is the one area not really protected by screen protectors.
iPhone screens haven't been cracking for years now.
i never used a phone case since 2019
This might be the first time I’ve seen someone happy about an advertisement in the wild. It is a cool video though!
The ads for ReMarkable 2 and Apple’s Don’t Blink are quite captivating and entertaining in a way that I can’t claim about typical advertising.
Nice video, indeed. Towards the end of the video the last shot of the home screen says "April 1" -- nice Easter Egg for all us "fools".
This is a heat pipe. A technology from the 60s. Your laptop almost certainly has heat pipes in it. They usually use alcohol rather than water as the phase change material though. The (relatively) novel thing is that it's packaged small enough to be in a phone. I suspect the only reason it hasn't been used in handhelds more is because the TDP of mobile processors wasn't high enough to warrant it.
Vapor chambers and heat pipes use some of the same physics concepts, but a vapor chamber is significantly more effective for spreading heat across a large area. They’re also harder to manufacture and more complex.
Have you ever seen a CPU or GPU heat sink that has 5-6 heat pipes in parallel because they need to spread the head over a larger area? A vapor chamber is an upgrade over heat pipes in applications that aren’t moving heat from a point to a line.
Don’t be so dismissive. This is actually cool.
Perhaps it's just that in retrospect, it seems a relatively small jump from heat pumps to vapor chambers.
Do you know if the vapor chambers operate at reduced internal atmospheric pressure? Unless I'm missing something, in order to get the liquid-gas phase boundary to a useful temperature, you'd have to bring the pressure down to, idk, 10kPa (boiling point of water is ~50C)? That would complicate manufacturing for sure, and also means that any leaks are catastrophic for your thermal solution.
Also I would be remiss if I did not note that the refrigerant designation of water is R-718.
> Do you know if the vapor chambers operate at reduced internal atmospheric pressure?
Indeed they do. A random search found this company that manufactures vapor chambers and they have a short discussion: https://radianheatsinks.com/vapor-chamber-heatsink/
On one side it’s cool. On the other, it’s a hot chip.
Heat pipes are one dimensional (a pipe), vapor chambers are two dimensional (a square chamber). Most vapor chambers I've seen on GPUs have the chamber attached to lots of small heat pipes on the side though (they even note this in article, in case you feel like reading it).
That said, I assume the main technical breakthrough here is in manufacturing, producing tiny chambers consistently in enough volume for iphones.
Any passive phase change thermal solution is doing the same thing - take thermal energy from one place, and distribute it for dissipation. My point is that the geometric configuration isn't that important, it's doing the same work the same way. Not really worth arguing about, I just suspect that the branding people love that they had a new buzzword in "vapor chamber" to bandy about.
I liked this article from 10 years ago that actually goes into detail about how Fujitsu actually constructed a super-thin heat pipe (really just a very long vapor chamber) https://spectrum.ieee.org/superslim-liquid-loop-will-keep-fu...
"Vapor chamber" isn't a new buzzword. It's been the name for flat plate heat pipes since the 1970s.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19770025469/downloads/19...
This thread reminds me of a friend that was dismissive of anything Apple does. “They didn’t invent it”, “they rebranded someone else’s invention”, “maybe they invented it but all those features are just marketing”.
No, he has never used owned or used an Apple product. Not worth his time.
I think your friend spoke a kernel of truth while misunderstanding what Apple do well. It's pretty rare that they come out with something that hasn't been done at small scale previously, but they have insane scale (100s of millions of iPhones sold per model), and a well-developed ability to take cutting edge techniques, as well as some tech that is in development but not ready for prime time, and integrate it and release it in products a year before anyone else can tool up to compete.
Also on some Android gaming phones since 2018. Regular heat pipes on phones dates back to at least 2013.
>The (relatively) novel thing is that it's packaged small enough to be in a phone
Android/other phones have had heat pipes/vapour chambers for a long time now. I'm not sure why anybody calls this novel or new even when applied to mobile devices.
Moar Apple effect, I guess.
As I understand it, it’s more than that: there are small “inverted pyramids” that cause the water to condense more rapidly, to extract even more heat from the system.
https://youtu.be/qAZ-q3KmDHM?si=pb08RMHEAA4o94xF
texture etc to promote condensation and to wick (without a rope) condensed liquid back to the hot point are also used in heat pipes.
I agree with the other commenters that "vapor chamber" is a kind of heat pipe, since "heat pipe" doesn't really impose constant radii by definition.
Vapor chambers are in laptops already. Mostly gaming laptops, because they need help getting the heat away from GPUs.
The miniaturisation of vapor chambers is cool, though. Not new (phones have been coming out with those for years), but it's not "just" another heatpipe.
I think that the fact that more and more phones producing so much heat that they need vapor chambers is also something worth writing about.
That said, most news media seems to have drunk the Apple kool aid because they all rave about the vapor chamber for some reason. I guess iPhone media is just a few years behind the curve.
It's a little bit older than just the 60s..
Oppo uses these in some of their phones. They gave a factory tour to the "Know Art" Youtube channel, which made a good video on it: https://youtu.be/qAZ-q3KmDHM
Razer Phone 2 laughs, 6 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGsICbmmfws
Also same tech used in laptops. I was always wondering when we'd see this in high end phones.
I was wondering when yet again we'd see the "omg Apple!!! So innovative!!!"
Wonder what the next Apple "innovation" will be.
Majority of your comments are nothing more than just bashing Apple with things that aren’t even the case.
Nobody, especially not the title of this post, says anything about this being “innovative” or “omg”.
I think you are right that there is an Apple mental field that controls people, but I actually think the effect is on the other side.
Most Apple fans just comment on something new and go like “hey, look how neat this”. The haters, on the other hand, respond with more or less the same thing multiple times even in the same thread.
I understand if a kid does it, it’s innate to humans to side with Pepsi or Cola, with Xbox or PS, but for an adult, it’s just sad.
If you love tech, just appreciate new things regardless of who the company that makes them is. And if you don’t, then why waste your time on hating it all the time? Just get a hobby.
I'm interested to see how many/few complaints we see about the iPhone Air overheating, since it has almost the exact same chip as the 17 Pro but a simpler cooling system
"My phone is really hot, is this normal or is it broken?!" is something I started getting asked by random iPhone-using friends over the last few years as they upgraded to a new model and then felt it sizzling.
Got my air yesterday and it definitely gets hot. Will see how it does after a few days as I expected the heat due to the initial sync and transfer, and iOS indexes everything for a day or two.
But even then it was no hotter than my 16 Pro
Got my air yesterday and it definitely gets hot. Will see how it does after a few days as I expected the heat due to the initial sync and transfer, and iOS indexes everything for a day or two.
I have one, too, and you're right that the heating is just what happens while it restores its data and settings and whatnot.
I believe it also re-scans your entire photo library to re-identify dogs, cars, people, etc. with whatever improved algorithm comes with the new chip/OS.
This happens every time you get a new iPhone. Depending on how much it has to sort through, it can take a couple of hours to a week.
I always leave the case off for the first few days.
As a photographer with over 50,000 photos in my iCloud, getting new iPhones is a pain.
>I'm interested to see how many/few complaints we see about the iPhone Air overheating
One less core, and from the benchmarking it's clear that it throttles a fair bit earlier than the rest. Even worse its a titanium body so worse dissipation
I figure it will just be clocked down to maintain thermals
Which most people are going to immediately cover with an insulating layer of plastic or silicone.
At least the heat will be spread out from one spot (and into the battery?). All phone makers are doing what they can within the design constraints.
Why have none of the major players tried integrating a case? Making a ruggedized version? They could probably do a lot better and find ways to innovate with something integrated.
Why do they ignore the fact that so many people use cases (and the market opportunity)? It's almost a defect at this point. Some people like the personalization but I think a lot of people just want something that won't break when you drop it...
> Why do they ignore the fact that so many people use cases (and the market opportunity)?
Apple sells cases.
There are ruggedized phones available. The market is small.
You can get away without a case with a modern iPhone for longer than most people assume.
The average person does better with a $10 sacrificial case layer that snaps on to their phone that can be replaced whenever they want or if it gets damaged.
Lots of reasons. The most obvious ones that come to mind:
1. People like a variety of custom cases that themselves have features (eg wallet cases random designs etc). If it’s built into the phone that customization capability is worse because you now have two layers of protection making for a very thick and heat-insulating design.
2. It’s valuable to have partners that make accessories for your device. If you kill that line of business for them, other things may go away and those partners will want to work with you less.
3. An integrated case will still suffer cosmetic damage. But now without the option to replace, you’re stuck with that damage.
I’ve had phones before that rugged enough to not want a case. It’s great, I wish there were good options like that today. But I think I prefer a separate case. When mine gets enough wear and tear, I replace it and it feels like I have a whole new phone.
> Which most people are going to immediately cover with an insulating layer of plastic or silicone.
Or their hand. Or their pocket.
It’s fine. It’s planned.
The cooling solution’s job is to spread the heat around as much as possible so it can be dissipated in the limited conditions available.
When the bare phone is in your hand and it's quite a bit warmer than body temperature, your hand may very well be carrying away more heat than ambient air exchange would be capable of.
For phones that heat up enough to need it, the screen also acts as a way to dissipate heat. Unless you put an extremely thick screen protector on there, the phone will still be able to get rid of some heat through the glass.
I do wonder how this will affect benchmarks, though. I can imagine the phones running slower in practice compared to reviews because the reviewers don't put a case on there.
Pretty sure this is 99% a reaction to LLMs. On the older ones things get really spicy with even short on device LLM runs.
I've noticed my iPhone get hot the most while using the camera. Especially while taking video, but after a few photos it gets hot as well. I was on vacations last week in a tropical country and took a lot of photos with my 16 Pro and it gets so hot after just a few photos that it starts lagging A LOT due to the throttling.
I'm sure this is handy for LLM usage, but this was a problem before those were a thing I'd say.
I have the same case, iPhone 16 pro is getting really hot when taking photos and videos it’s unbearable. I will change my phone for that reason, the battery melts right away … I noticed something though, when taking a picture with the x5 camera if I cover the main lens the brightness changes. So I think the iPhone now merges the two stream to enhance quality. That wasn’t the case before and that might be why the phone is getting hot
My 16 pro is frustratingly laggy taking photos all the time, particularly from the lock screen. It's a little better from the camera app.
Anyone noticed that the gradient pattern on the wallpaper says "PRO" if you look closely?
I still don't understand why massive cooling efforts are needed when most people are just sending messages and watching videos anyway. Your phone from 10 years ago could do that
I have an iPhone Air now and have no complaints about the heating. The thinness is worth the occasional heat and throttle down. Every time I pick up this phone, it just feels fantastic!
I am considering buying the Air over the base model 17. Only concern I have is whether the battery will degrade faster over charging cycles than base model? Someone with more experience in battery tech could explain if that could be the case possibly?
Of course it will. Less capacity, it means that you'll have more cycles per year (for example you might need to charge base model once in a two days, while air once in a day); or you'll keep air at more extreme battery values (for example you might charge base model every day, but you'll charge it from 25% to 80%, while you'll charge air model every day from 5% to 80%).
That doesn't matter, though. Battery replacement on iPhones is very common procedure and you'll need to replace both batteries eventually.
It doesn’t matter because people who buy iPhone Air likely enjoy owning cutting edge experimental products. So when the folding iPhone comes out in a year or two they will probably switch to that. The battery only needs to survive long enough for that.
Serious question: how is the thinness providing value? Is it simply the feel?
Back when I had the iPhone 5S (7.6 mm vs the 5.6 mm of the iPhone 17 Air): It provided value in terms of feel. It felt like a piece of art meeting cutting edge technology. It wasn't about showing off.
It was also so light that it felt safe to use it without a protective case. And not that expensive.
Nothing feels better than the original iPhone.
Solid, tactile, and just the right size. Mine finally got stuck in a boot loop earlier this year, but I keep it in my desk drawer, and pick it up occasionally. The mute switch (an actual switch, not a button) is still the best.
My original iPhone (bought in June 2007 for competetive research) has started swelling and won't boot up. Still keeping it. Maybe I should store it in a bucket of sand though.
Open it, remove the battery and put it in a dedicated recycling bin.
Yep.
Easier to slide into the back pocket of my jeans and it doesn’t bulge as much. It also just feels really good in your hands, great ergonomics.
Every time I pick up this phone, it just feels fantastic!
I find that I treat it very gingerly. Something in my mind expects it to be fragile; presumably because it's thin and looks like glass.
> In Apple’s version, a small amount of deionized water is sealed in the chamber. […] Water is often used in vapor chambers, though sometimes other materials are mixed in to prevent it from freezing and cracking the seal, Chiriac says.
So Apple uses deionized water, while others add in some other chemicals to prevent it from freezing. So how will the new iPhone deal with freezing temperatures?
Is it necessary to prevent the water from freezing? If the chamber and water within are subzero while the SoC produces sufficient heat, the ice would simply melt.
* Edit: the article mentioned freezing could crack the seal. Freezing would be a bigger issue than I had thought, then.
I remember being stuck on a ski lift on a day that was too cold and windy for any intelligent person to be skiing. The phone in my breast pocket was cold to the touch and the battery capacity evaporated by 50%. The display's response time was hundreds of ms. I turned it off at that point.
Not a huge deal. Just charge it when it's warmer. I would have been a little surprised if something inside popped and suddenly the phone started thermal throttling or had water damage.
In my city, temperatures are regularly below -20 Celsius and sometimes below -40. iPhone just doesn't work. You need to keep it close to body and you can't use it outside for a prolonged period of time, it'll simply shut off in a few minutes and won't turn on until you heat it.
Old phones and some android phones work just fine in these conditions.
It shouldn't crack the seal because there's very tiny amount of liquid inside there should be enough room to expand.
but that's in theory :P
They must be struggling to hit their perf/w targets if this ended up being necessary.
These phones are not going to age well, the paste or thermal pads is not going to last. Larger sheets of graphene for full size processors and gpus are good for a decade, at this size it'll be lucky to get to 5.
Not exactly brand new tech, but now on a mobile device without the long-term security baggage that often comes from using Android.
I think NSO Group has pretty thoroughly demonstrated that iOS users aren't exonerated from security concerns.
Yes, state actors will be able to breach into your iOS device if you're deemed important enough.
Edit: Meanwhile your average Android device has multiple publicly known remote execution issues.
With iPhone 17 line the security situation has improved dramatically. I'm not a cybersecurity researcher, but Apple says even nation-state actors will struggle to breach a single device with the newly introduced Memory Integrity Enforcement mechanism. Their research appears legit:
https://security.apple.com/blog/memory-integrity-enforcement...
> Apple says even nation-state actors will struggle to breach a single device
Oh, I remember when they said this about Blastdoor too!
This is very clearly an entirely different class of effort than Blastdoor was/is. They decided that they needed a hardware solution to kill a category of exploits; Apple has a very good track record in this kind of thing.
Yup. Pretty similar to the modern threat profile of Android, all things considered.
> your average Android device has multiple publicly known remote execution issues.
Help me distinguish between "publicly known" RCE vulns and private ones. Do the privately owned exploits like FORCEDENTRY count as "publicly known", or only the Greykey/Cellebrite exploits used by governments?
Apple’s primary motivation is to sell hardware. Their brand is hurt if their direct customers suffer damages through malware.
Google’s primary motivation is to sell ads. Their brand is not hurt if phone brand FlirpleFoo ships millions of Android devices and then hurts those customers by not keeping those devices secure.
> Pretty similar to the modern threat profile of Android, all things considered
I don’t think this is accurate. Not even every nation-state would be expected to have access to iPhone zero days, particularly with the new memory protection rolling out.
I don't think that's accurate, either. NSO Group sold their exploits to several other nation-states, seemingly without much (any...?) vetting concerning the ethics of their government.
> seemingly without much (any...?) vetting concerning the ethics of their government
I’m not trusting in ethics. I’m trusting in commerce.
MIE should drastically reduce both the production rate and lifetime of zero days. That, in turn, means a focus on maximising profit per vulnerability versus process line.
I really hope this will land on MacBook Air M5. Enough for me to keep the me on Air rather than going Pro.
Probably more likely on the macbook with the A19 pro chip (rumored). They'd probably be able to use the exact same vapor chamber
Why the emphasis on Apple when Samsung was there first?
It looks like the competition is making them sweat (pun intended).
You should know how this goes by now. It's not like this is the first time Apple introduced an old technology but marketed it like they invented sliced bread. I give their marketing team credit.
Literally in the subheading:
> Apple joins Samsung and Google in managing heat
Usually it is sign for stability and usefulness if Apple adapts it. They rarely add something very new for mass production.
Heat pipes and vapour chambers are older than Apple
I think miniaturizing it to fit into a modern cellphone adds a few complexities that make it pretty different from the heat pipes and vapor chambers that existed in the 70s.
But the heading is the attractor.
But the sweat is evaporating now, at least.
But seriously though, I think it's just due to larger market share (at least in the US), so more people are seeing it and commenting on it.
Because average people "care" about Apple far more than their peers.
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> Why is the Android fanbase so obsessed
Please don't post flamebait on HN. Stereotyping a large group of people as "obsessed" in reaction to one comment by one person is not cool.
Probably because every Android or x86 thread gets filled with Apple fans doing similar things? This is just how these kinds of discussions go.
Wrong. The vast majority of Apple fans don't care about Android. I never see "Apple fans" going in threads about random Android stuff and talking about it. On the opposite, I see a lot of Android users complain and talk in every single videos regarding anything Apple on YouTube.
I will preface this with: Apple is _far_ from perfect, sometimes they even fail the “good” bar and I have serious issues with the direction they are going on some products/software. However, I see them as the lessor of two evils. I understand you might not agree, that’s just the conclusion I’ve come to.
> Wrong. The vast majority of Apple fans don't care about Android.
This is my experience as well. I prefer Apple products but I have Android phones/tablets (test devices) and know there are aspects where Android is better.
That said, I have some friends who make it their life mission to mention any Apple/iPhone failing to me. I just don’t get it. I literally never bring it up, or if I bring up anything Apple related it’s just me excited about a new device I got, never in the context of “look how much better it is than Android”. Even then, I’ve learned to temper my excitement lest they see it as an opportunity to tell me all the problems/issues they have with it. I don’t follow Android news closely, I don’t share “gotcha’s” about the hardware/os, etc.
It reminds me this scene in Mad Men [0], I literally do not think about Android or Android users but I know a couple Android users who seem to obsess over Apple products/users in a way I cannot relate to and do not understand. I can bet any negative Apple news will be relayed to me by them, I literally could not care less about the Android ecosystem issues (of which I see many).
[0] https://youtu.be/LlOSdRMSG_k
My experience is very similar to yours. I am the biggest Apple critic I personally know (don’t get me started on Tim Cook) though I don’t even share a tenth of it because I don’t want to bother my non-technical friends. But I do use a Mac and an iPhone because I prefer them to the alternatives. If I had my way, several things about those products and the company would be different, but at a certain point I had to make a choice and get on with my life.
Still, I have found several people who are outright Apple haters and can’t fathom that anyone who uses their products is anything but a brainwashed puppet. These people talk about Apple more than their most ardent fans. It’s an irrational amount of hate I only ever see from meat eaters who hate vegetarians.
A while back I had a friend who (by choice) uses both a Mac and Android describe to me what they disliked about the iPhone when they used one for a few minutes, in a tone that sounded like personal criticism and disappointment. What do I care? It has nothing to do with me, the products I use aren’t a part of my identity.
Another friend, one who uses Windows and Android, used to grill me about Apple on every chance. I mostly ignored it, but eventually just explained: “Look, it’s not that I think Apple is flawless. On the contrary, I think they have plenty of flaws. But I have tried many operating systems (he, on the other hand, always lived on Windows and Android) and Apple’s are the ones which fit what I need to do the least badly”. To his credit, he understood and never again touched the subject.
My philosophy regarding operating systems, text editors, and other subjective sources of flame wars is pretty simple: Use whatever makes you happy and works for you. I don’t care what that is, as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else. If you ask me a question or an opinion, I’ll try to answer it as truthfully and with as much relevancy as possible for you. I’ll tell you if there’s something I think you may benefit from knowing, but you control the conversation. But if you just want to ignorantly gush about my very informed picks, I’m not interested. Live and let live.
> I am the biggest Apple critic I personally know
This always gets me. I, as an Apple user, have more vitriolic and in-depth criticisms against Apple than any Android user I know. When Apple haters start their rants, it’s always one of a few superficial talking points that are nowhere near the actual biggest issues of the company or its devices.
As someone who uses both sides (android phone, mac book and a few other apple products), I'll shit on everything that needs to be shat on.
Samsung's new notification bubble that is laggy, gets in the way and is hard to dismiss without launching the app it was for? Moronic.
Apple's "superior UX" of app installs via app store, oh wait but to uninstall it, you have to go to finder and delete it aka breaking the UX flow (should be same place). Idiotic.
Apple do make some of the best laptops tho, the m series is great, best touchpad imo.
For all these things it just sucks that all the companies suck. Focus is on shareholders and growth across every domain now. There's a reason companies can chuck billions at the AI bubble for fun - which is hilarious and all those billions and they still haven't solved problems with models that have been solved locally, got the vibe coders on it I guess.
It extends beyond videos. I have a friend that works at Apple. In social gatherings, he'll be vague about where he works, to avoid having to hear people defending their Android phones and shitting on Apple. I thought he was exaggerating, but then he showed me. It's super weird.
Tribalism is a hell of a drug.
It feels like a manifestation of inferiority complex.
What on earth are you talking about? There isn't a single Android thread here where some Apple dude wouldn't have an utterly wrong post.
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Oppo (Chinese phone manufacturer) also has them and manufactures them.
Samsung is definitely NOT the first.
Because Samsung didn't invent the special patented Apple thermal transfer iShaft technology.
Samsung is not Apple. Relatively no one cares about Samsung outside Korea.
I think you are exaggerating how much people care about apple outside US. Apple is popular but Samsung, Xiaomi etc are also very dominant in other markets.
I'm not US based, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Market share is not what matters. When an S30 comes out, nobody cares. When a new iPhone comes out, my mother asks me about it.
This is why you're seeing a lot of people talking about something that Samsung did first.
You are very from US to think that. Samsung strong in Europe.
Tell me when was the last time you heard boomers talk about Samsung. Never happened. Now how many times has nana mentioned "the iPhone" specifically?
Also not from the US, I live in Thailand. Everyone wants an iPhone. Those who can't afford it buy Oppo, etc.
Samsung may be "strong" in Europe but it's just because it's colorful and/or cheaper. You live in the HN bubble if you think that people care about specs and not brands/price. The choice is generally "Either Apple or whatever else in my budget"
> The choice is generally "Either Apple or whatever else in my budget"
Lol dude, stop acting like you know what's happening in my part of the world. People only care about apple because all major news outlets are payed by apple to talk about it when they hold their yearly sales pitch.
People don't act like this with any other product/manufacturer etc.
Not everyone wants an iPhone in Germany. It is not in the least like everyone who can afford it gets one and the others Android. Like in most high income countries, the money for an iPhone is available or can be scrounged together for the vast majority of people.
Phone usage is getting more intense as we move from mere passive consumption to having them as creative (compute) device. "Heat" is sort of reflection of that.
I want to see more optimization to reduce the heat from both hardware as in this case and in software side as well. I guess it is easier to show enhancements about hardware made to address something such as heat or processing but comparatively difficult or abstract to show software optimizations?
From a keynote perspective, I guess showing software optimizations is less cinematic and not everyone can appreciate them as opposed to new or beautiful looking hardware.
Can this tech be used for EV batteries?
I guess? But vapor chambers are mostly good where space is a premium and where passive (non-powered) cooling is enough.
I'm guessing for EV batteries, better options exist since you obviously have power. Although sometimes vapor chambers are used in conjunction with active cooling.
Heat pumps are way better if you have to manage a lot of heat anyway.
Vapor chambers and heat pipes are exceptional at moving heat from a relatively small part of them to distribute it around the whole.
This is because the heat dumps into a liquid which is concentrated at the heat source, but as soon as it evaporates it fills the volume in which it’s contained. Also it’s because the evaporation process itself sucks out heat at a rate that’s orders of magnitude faster than via conduction, convection, or radiation alone.
They do not cool though. They rely on the fact that the heat source is relatively small and that something else can pull heat out of them fast enough to re-condense the liquid (and since they distribute the heat that cooling can attach anywhere or everywhere — this is like an embarrassingly parallel problem in software).
In a battery pack there is a lot of surface area that gets relatively and evenly hot, and little room to extract it between the cells. This would likely result in even heating around the heat pipe, which would tend to evaporate all of the liquid inside and do nothing but raise its overall temperature after an initial delay.
What it potentially could be used for is to draw heat out of the battery pack and up to some place where better airflow were possible, or for some active cooling system to extract the heat, but there are problems with scaling up like that (in typical heat pipes they manufacture wicking inner layers to draw the water back even against gravity).
At the points they could be used it’s likely significantly cheaper and easier to control some air or liquid cooling loop through the batteries.
Phones are ideal because a tiny little chip is producing almost all of the heat. It’s not even a lot, it’s just in a small area. Temperature goes up when heat can’t escape, so in this case, spreading the heat around even a few square inches can be a major factor in keeping down the temperature of the CPU/GPU.
Contrast this to EV batteries which are huge and produce evenly distributed heat already; there just isn’t the same value when things are big enough to add cooling systems, when cooling systems are necessary anyway, and when the heat pipe or vapor chamber just adds another piece too the system.
EV batteries have active cooling systems that force cool air through the packs.
Even better, it’s not air, it’s usually liquid coolant. In my Lightning it’s the same formula they use for their gas engines, even.
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17th iteration in less than 20 years, billions produced. About a billion already 'obsolete'.
Seems fair to ask: what's the expected lifespan of an iPhone these days?
Does anyone here have insight as to what percent of materials used to make them is actually recycled?