Doing hobbies that involve other people has helped me make a lot of friends- for a lot of men in particular, this is often really the only way to build friendships.
Learning how to be emotionally vulnerable is key to actually connecting with people. The book "Models" by Mark Manson is a pretty good primer on the importance of emotional vulnerability to connect with people. It is sort-of a dating advice book, but I've found it helpful for making regular friendships and connecting with my own family as well.
Another thing that is helpful is learning how to communicate assertively- which is the opposite of being emotionally manipulative. The book "When I say no I feel guilty" is particularly good introduction to assertive communication. A lot of people only learned emotionally manipulative communication, and will be avoided by almost anyone that sees that for what it is.
Counter-intuitively, not being desperate is critical. Be willing to judge if someone is worth your time, and be willing to disagree with people or say no, without letting the fear of being rejected control you. The same authenticity and vulnerability that will make people really connect with you, will also drive some people away, and that is totally fine. The goal is not to be friends with everyone, but to make good friends with people you are compatible with.
Therapy can often be helpful for developing all 3 of the above skills.
Lastly, take the initiative to make things happen. Invite someone to do activities several times before expecting them to reciprocate. People tend to be busy, shy, stressed, etc. - just because people don't reach out doesn't mean they don't like you.
This is really well said. I think the key parts you’ve identified are:
- being emotionally vulnerable (but not an emotional doormat!)
- not being desperate
I really struggled with emotional vulnerability, and this took time to get comfortable with, with many fails.
Being desperate is also tricky, because when you’re lonely you yearn to make contacts. I won’t lie, this part is hard, but working on yourself FIRST seems to be the key anecdotally.
Be the best version of yourself. When I say this, I mean the best “genuine” version. That means, genuinely caring, not desperate, not toxic, letting go of grudges, challenging insecurities and strong negative beliefs.
Note that “best you” does NOT mean “rich”, “powerful”, “hot and ripped”, “best dressed”, “most girlfriends” and “coolest car” …. lol
Some people think the above when they are younger, because our whole lives we are sold that that is what success looks like. Sure, to a very shallow world view it may be “success”.
But being happy, caring, genuine, and honest is much harder and much more related to success in my opinion.
I agree, trying to not be desperate when you are lonely can be a real catch 22. Gradually building up a strong circle of good friends is the main thing that gives social confidence and makes you non-desperate, but that is little help to someone that is lonely.
When I was younger I ended up being friends with some awful people (literally criminals in some cases), and even marrying someone that treated me badly, because I just didn't want to be alone.
Now I think there is a better solution when finding friends hard to come by- decide what is really important to you and make that a hard boundary, but be willing to tolerate other "flaws" in people that might also be having trouble making friends. For example, I won't be friends with someone that I think is a bad person, or treats others badly on purpose, but I will be friends with someone that has poor social skills or is neurodivergent in a way that makes them hard for others to be around, if I think they are still a good person, and am able to enjoy spending time with them, e.g. through a shared activity we both enjoy.
I found that essentially lowering my standards in a way compatible with my values expanded my circle of potential friends, without being "desperate" in the sense of having no boundaries like I did when I was younger.
I also agree that you get to define success for yourself based on your own values. It is a mistake to take the definition of success handed to you by society/others.
Not much to add to an already great comment, but I'll emphatically back the recommendation of "Models".
I read that book in my early 20s so that I could have better relationships with women, but what I got from that book were lessons on living a good and authentic life. Easily the most influential book I've ever read.
I think this is a good rule to live by that I should incorporate. I fear that energy I spend on people who just aren’t into me will leave me bitter and reluctant to spend that energy on others, which will have compounding effects as I get later into life. Giving myself a firm limit of energy spent will help ensure it persists longer.
I don’t have many friends. But I have very deep connections with few people, and it’s getting better as I get older. I’m still under 30. Most of my friends are nearing 50.
Anecdotally, know yourself. And make an effort. Cast your nets deep, not wide. Have morals, have ideas, have grounding principals. Principals that are malleable over time and experience. It helps to have a “North Star” in life.
I live by: Live very simply, be genuine, be honest no matter what, love deeply.
Have “strong opinions held loosely”. Don’t have shallow insights, be educated, read deeply, learn deeply.
Don’t be a sheep. That is the default most boring state in the world. It makes for boring people and interactions. Question that status quo. But don’t do it just because a person on the internet said, see how it relates to your principles.
I’ve lost a lot of friends over the years, it happens, many times was due to how I was as a person at the time.
But learning from my partner has made me a more principled person, comfortable in my own skin now.
I have a very small amount of close relationships with friends, and they are relationships not bound by time or upkeep or location.
We mostly catch up when we can a few times a year, and have deep life discussions and catching up on their life. It helps that they are genuinely some of the smartest people I’ve ever met.
I facilitate a lot of the meetups. I’ve learnt to be okay with this, I people have busy lives. Younger me used to take this personally, and think “why do I have to do everything”, but that’s just my role, and the relationships are worth the effort.
I say this from experience, most interactions with people are very shallow. I think people shy away from connections as there is a world full of potential connections. Analysis paralysis and perfection.
So you just have to be the bigger person and make the effort, but you also have to determine whether a person is worth making an effort for.
To answer that question, look for people that are:
- not materialistic; genuine; caring; kind; honest to a fault; living life
The thing I always remind myself on this topic is from Dale Carengie's How to Win Friends and Influence People which is essentially you will make an order of magnitude more friends by being interested in other people than you will in trying to make them interested in you
The problem is that this advice is missing one piece of crucial information - first impressions are everything.
Imagine you start a job, and you meet a coworker, who is well groomed, well spoken, and he just starts small chat with you, doing all the strategies in the book of "building you up". You would probably feel good.
Now imagine the same situation except you have a coworker who is socially awkward and speaks in a monotone voice, doesn't do small chat, and right away starts asking very probing questions. You would probably be annoyed as fuck.
This is good advice for salespeople who need to strike up a rapport in a short amount of time. Real adult friendships are far more complicated due to the time investment required to actually build a friendship.
To add to this, adult relationships are shades of shared adversity, reciprocity, vulnerability, and demonstrating reliability. Avoid transactional behavior, put yourself out there, accept losses but be present in the positive moments.
> I’ll invite an acquaintance to get a coffee or beer with me a few times but never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang.
This is a great start! You’re already doing what most people find the hardest: making the first move.
Grabbing coffee, and even going out to dinner, aren’t good activities for making deep connections. They’re too short and too routine. They can work, it’ll just take longer, and you will have to work harder to make sure conversation is meaningful.
I think the best way to make real friendships is to go on a weekend trip somewhere together. First of all, you’re spending days together instead of hours, but more importantly, you’ll have a shared experience to remember. You get to see what someone is like not only during activities and meals, but also during downtime.
Weekend trips could be awkward if it’s just one on one though, so if you don’t have a group, the next best thing is doing an activity together. Figure out a shared interest, then invite your new friend to do something you’d both enjoy. Maybe it’s a concert, talk, hike, whatever. Do that a few times and your new friend will associate you with that activity. Next time they’re going to a concert/talk/hike or whatever, they’ll invite you to tag along.
I'm one of the people you might invite. I'm an introvert and I don't think to include others in my plans. When I think about it now, I mostly assume they wouldn't want to.
I will accept almost every social engagement with people I like, though.
I’m in a weird state where at 30 years old we (together with my wife) lost our whole social circle and had to start anew. It’s hard. What I realized that many people who are 30+ already have their social group they’re content with and are not interested in expanding it, at least not initially.
What we tried to do was basically inviting all our neighbors over, always being nice without trying too hard. At first some would not even say hello back. After a while we developed relationships that are not very deep yet, but we’re getting somewhere. It takes time, a lot of time.
What I would suggest is that you try many different people (neighbors, fellow parents from school, work colleagues) if one relationship doesn’t pan out. Eventually you’ll find someone with whom you will “click”. For me the best relationships I got was with the former work colleagues, we just kept in touch and hanged out after work.
When I have trouble diagnosing something, I reach into literature for clues. Your post reminded me about this paper from 2016, reading it might prove to be helpful for you.
>Are You Your Friends’ Friend? Poor Perception of Friendship Ties Limits the Ability to Promote Behavioral Change
I’m currently reading this book called “Supercommunicators” and while I’m not done with it, there are some ideas there that really resonate.
One of them is that this kind of people are generally in the minds of their friends/acquaintances. And one of the reasons there is that they see them as very good listeners during conversations. They match their conversation style, they confirm what they’ve been talking about with feedback and this sort of behaviour that tend to help people build trust and friendships.
I’m not done with the book yet, but I can see many things relating to what I generally practice. And I’ve got good friends :)
(2) Be Childlike in your approach to life and relationships
(1) Honest Living
If your boring (and I don't know if you are), its probably because you stopped pursuing things that you wanted and excited you for something safe.
Boring people also mask their emotions when speaking to people to avoid rejection.
To find people you genuinely connect with, you need to express yourself fully. Honest expressions will make you more polarizing, and you will experience rejection. But the people you connect with will be much deeper because they see who you actually are.
Honest living usually means some therapy or self reflection to identify the things in your life you stopped purusing. A simple litmus test: you are in a social situation and see a person you find attractive. Do you make excuses for not talking to them or go and talk to them, openly stating your interest?
(2) Childlike
Children play until they get hurt or get in trouble. Do you approach relationships with this attitude? Is your heart open to loving other people even if it hurts and they reject you?
Relationships - in the work setting - stem from building trust that you can do your job/deliver as promised, and how your actions impact the careers of others.
A colleague might be a fun character telling stories over a beer but also professionally useless.
If a colleague invited me out for a coffee - and we didn't really know each other in the office - I would be suspicious as to their motive.
Recognizing that friendships are important. It's easy when younger to take them for granted. Easy come, easy go (even when not easy come). That's profoundly mistaken. Friendships of all kinds are important and deserve a deliberate approach.
I think not taking it personally that somebody doesn't ring you back is a good start. People are busy, as you get older you have more responsibilities than you have time, so whatever you can eke out is for people who're already in your circles.
For gelling with new people and bringing them into your own circle, it's good to understand that it's a numbers game too. Figuring out social groups that you enjoy should always be the main goal. I have real life friends who love climbing, and we already budgeted time for climbing, so we usually hang out before or after a session and it hits all the same. Similarly, online friends who like building video games like me can sometimes spare the time to play or develop together.
Increasing your surface area in this way is a great way to start! As you get acquainted with more people, the chances that you have at least one person to hang out with at any time increases greatly, and in turn that they will want to hang out with you.
1. You're not a 100 dollar bill to be liked by everyone that you like. While worrying about it is in itself a repellent.
2. You may actually be full of sh.t (nobody's perfect). Only life and rarely a very close true friend can give you proper hints (or lessons which are often quite expensive, but that is what builds your character and makes you you in the end).
> never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang
Many people don't think twice about friendships (of any kind). It's them.
You are not their top of the list attraction (of any kind). It's you.
But then too, when you are lucky enough to find someone who really clicks with you, do ask them to critique your approach. Sadly in many cultures including the US, this is just "not done". Not considered appropriate. Even when you ask. That's so sad. No wonder we are lonely.
Maybe somewhat tangential, but for maintaining relationships (close or distant) in general, the best things for me (who am still learning) have been a study of the Bible and Book of Mormon, and some things they said in our church's General Conference, which I will try to roughly quote from memory:
"Never let a task to be accomplished be more important than a person to be loved."
"The primary feeling in any interaction should be love."
"Observe and serve."
This does not mean failure to speak only truth in kindness as appropriate, or to set boundaries when necessary. I think Jesus Christ's example of understanding, truth, and kindness are ideal for us all.
Also as some have hinted here, being a good listener, asking questions, caring about others' background and well-being in general, being humble, willing to share when appropriate, and looking for the good and things to appreciate in others, and ways to serve, can go a long way. Interesting volunteering opportunities (where you would meet people as a side-effect) might be found at https://justserve.org if available in your area.
Too many factors to possibly diagnose if “it’s you”, or even if there is something “to fix”.
Anecdotally, I desire to hang out with people who share my interests and want to do similar activities that we both enjoy.
I’m a few years removed from college now, and it’s highlighted to me just how special living closely with people of similar age and interest does for one’s social life. Once you spread out, gain dependents, work, etc… it’s much more of an effort to stay in touch.
Just because someone doesn’t reciprocate your effort to connect doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t want to hang out with you.
Disinhibition is a social lubricant. We are so used to being safe because that's what the workplace requires, that we've lost the ability to be disinhibited around closer relationships. People who can be disinhibited and show their flaws are really attractive. But it doesn't come free, some people will reject you more. And that's ok.
but never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang.
Treating relationsips non-transactionally, helped me. Sure, sometimes I might feel a bit disappointed. That's a hazard of para-social thinking. Relationships have asymmetries. Hence the friendship paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox
Maybe I’m a boring person?
Well half of all people are more boring than average...But mostly adult lives are complex. You probably don't rate as highly as someone's child, partner, or established social circle. These are long term relationships. Good luck.
Some people are just like that (I know I am sometimes). Don't take it personally.
Rather than try to change how that person responds to you, you can either work on being ok with how little they initiate, or you can put effort into other (or finding new) relationships where people will initiate more.
People also go through busy and less busy times - so maybe try again with this person in 6 months and see if things are different.
There are so many different kinds of people (with so many different preferences), that I really think your time is better spent finding new people that you click more with, rather than trying to change yourself.
R.A.D.A.R. or structured communication. This is the idea that difficult and "we need to talk" kinds of topics should not be addressed when "hot" but when the circumstances are at their best; and that deliberate time with best circumstances should be created deliberately; and that some topics that rarely get time to be discussed should get time. This is a profound idea. ... and for me so far it has had minimal result. In part because of a partner weaponizing EVEN these deliberately perfect circumstances! Le sigh.
Trying to make convo circumstances and process perfect cannot solve mental issues or deeply ingrained habbits. Not quickly anyway, perhaps not at all. But for damn sure, it's thinking in the right direction!
I am currently wanting to apply this "even" to friendships but run into the issue that people "don't have time".
> How do you fix something like this if you can’t diagnose what’s wrong?
You don't "fix" it, you just fine-tune your behavior models.
Make of yourself something that people need and/or want (which is often something they'll eventually outright signal that they're missing). Don't make yourself dependable, but desirable.
Empathy and compassion are fickle resources because if you are superficial about expressing them, people will notice.
Sound advice and expertise are nice but limited in scope and frequency, and require some reputation and trust building.
In most informal contexts most people are prone to oversharing to a keen ear. So become an active listener, pretend to be genuinely interested (but not necessarily empathic) about people's experiences and throw in something relatable to them on the way, pretend to be more stupid than them, grease their egos while playing an innocent contrarian, and eventually they'll think you're a great person and invite you to their secret boring, pretentious and utterly tasteless wine drinking clubs. If that's what you want then you win.
Can you expound on this a bit? It seems that it’s realistically pursuing relationships that only seem as if they are moving in a reciprocal direction, otherwise move on as quickly as possible.
I can try! Your example is fairly generous. There are several reasons, some are less appropriate for a forum like this.
It's not so much reciprocity... but, some sort of personal investment. If I don't think someone is fully into "$thing", then I'll save the spot for someone who is. There are shades to relationships, most of mine have not been great. It's a defense mechanism - I know I'm not the target.
I don't recommend any of this, really. Just to make considerations. I'm closer with some of my coworkers than most of my family, yet I'm not that keen. Most of the time, at least. It's strange. Incredibly dynamic.
I would benefit greatly from more people like you who actually do make an effort. Yet, I'd disappoint you and feel terrible about it. I think I'm always prepared for things to go south, expecting it - perhaps causing it.
Just like any relationship, some click and some don’t.
People are busy and don’t think about others most of the time. Most live in their own world.
If they get an invite, they’ll often be happy to mix things up and meet. Then most go back to their normal routine.
Give off relaxed and breezy vibes. It’s easy to sense when someone is trying too hard. Most don’t want an another obligation in life, so they don’t want another thing they need to be bothered by. However, a friend that is casual works out better.
Amount of time between hanging out has naturally gotten further apart. Allow yourself to be okay with this aspect.
Don’t take things personally. Be your natural and genuine self.
I’m on the receiving end of this behavior, and even if I’m probably not representative of what’s happening to you, I will bring my data point anyway.
There are quite a non-trivial number of people who reach out to me (mostly old friends/coworkers), with whom I wouldn’t want to engage. There are multiple reasons, but it fundamentally always boils down to any social interaction with them being an opportunity for them to compare themselves with me, and making me feel inferior, by explicit comments or by some sort of virtue signaling. I’m not even sure they realize it, and it’s also possible it’s just in my head. Regardless, that’s how I feel.
I am not a complete sociopath, so just declaring upfront that I do not desire to meet with them is bad taste in my morals, so I simply ruthlessly decline every single invitation, until they get the point and stop reaching out. It’s puzzling to me how sometimes a person might reach out for YEARS before giving up (on a perhaps 2-3 month basis for 2-3 years), asking for a call or to meet up, and me every time shutting them down with “I’m busy”, “I’m traveling”, etc.
Make no mistake, if I were to “cave in” and meet them up, it would immediately be an opportunity for them to flaunt their financial/marital/career/athletic success in front of me, by comparing themselves to me, so no, no pity. Example: a “friend” who made $20M from an extremely lucky IPO had the nerve to tell me “why don’t you just pick a good company that’s going to IPO soon and make a lot of money like me? A couple years and then you’re done, it’s easy”. No shit lol. This is a person who insisted for YEARS to meet up, after I started the process of declining any invitation. Fortunately he seems to have moved on now, but never say never.
It seems surprising to me that you are saying you have this issue with a lot of people, when I find this type of behavior to be fairly rare- although I agree it can be really obnoxious when it happens. I could be wrong about this, but is it possible that you are the one doing the comparing, and not them?
Do you feel that you are doing how you want in life, or that you aren't successful enough, and feel triggered or self conscious about other people doing well in general?
For example with the person you mentioned, why don't you get involved with a high risk high reward startup? I know for me, I am a parent so my financial risk tolerance is too low for that, and I'm more driven by intellectual freedom and working on specific things I am interested in rather than trying to get rich quick. I also personally enjoy simple living, and already live exactly how I want to live- I wouldn't choose to change my lifestyle with more money in the bank, so what would be the point? It's just not something I want to do, but I don't mind if a friend does and it pays out for them!
I want all of my friends to really thrive, and don't see life as a competition or zero-sum game. If someone is doing better than me at something, that is one less thing for us as a team to worry about- and maybe it will give them the time, energy, or wisdom to also help me to thrive more. I want to hear everything I can about how well they are doing, really celebrate it with them, and will be open to advice on how I might do the same. Personally, my main hobby is sailing, and most of my sailing friends are much much wealthier than I am. This doesn't really bother me, because I made choices in life that don't really lead to that kind of wealth- based on my own priorities, but I feel I am successful based on what I actually want out of life.
I really really don't want to be a person that has a crab in the bucket mentality - so consciously aim to be someone that isn't like that, and can enjoy other peoples success.
> but is it possible that you are the one doing the comparing, and not them?
> Do you feel that you are doing how you want in life, or that you aren't successful enough, and feel triggered or self conscious about other people doing well in general?
I have asked myself these questions many times, and I do think I have been fairly exhaustive in my introspection.
I genuinely think that a good number of people who reach out to me do so purely to lift themselves up, by comparing themselves with me on certain dimensions.
I am never the person initiating extremely violating questions such as: “How much do you make? How big is your house? Which neighborhood do you live in? Do you own or rent? How much can you squat? Based on your years of experience, your net worth should be in this ballpark, am I correct?” Etc etc.
No, I do not compare myself to others, I genuinely wouldn’t want what they have, in the dimensions that they are comparing themselves with me.
Could I be a person of extreme virtue and continue interacting with these people? Of course I could, but why should I, if it makes me unhappy? I am happy not to interact with them, there is nothing I need to change.
I have several relationships that work exactly like what you described (especially family, significant other, childhood friends), and I cherish those.
If people agree to hang out with you 45% of the time, that's really great.
Most of my circle is busy enough that my personal rate is somewhere between 20% and 30%.
Try giving people a longer notice. Like maybe a full week instead of a couple of days. This should help them fit you into their schedule. People are just really busy these days.
Doing hobbies that involve other people has helped me make a lot of friends- for a lot of men in particular, this is often really the only way to build friendships.
Learning how to be emotionally vulnerable is key to actually connecting with people. The book "Models" by Mark Manson is a pretty good primer on the importance of emotional vulnerability to connect with people. It is sort-of a dating advice book, but I've found it helpful for making regular friendships and connecting with my own family as well.
Another thing that is helpful is learning how to communicate assertively- which is the opposite of being emotionally manipulative. The book "When I say no I feel guilty" is particularly good introduction to assertive communication. A lot of people only learned emotionally manipulative communication, and will be avoided by almost anyone that sees that for what it is.
Counter-intuitively, not being desperate is critical. Be willing to judge if someone is worth your time, and be willing to disagree with people or say no, without letting the fear of being rejected control you. The same authenticity and vulnerability that will make people really connect with you, will also drive some people away, and that is totally fine. The goal is not to be friends with everyone, but to make good friends with people you are compatible with.
Therapy can often be helpful for developing all 3 of the above skills.
Lastly, take the initiative to make things happen. Invite someone to do activities several times before expecting them to reciprocate. People tend to be busy, shy, stressed, etc. - just because people don't reach out doesn't mean they don't like you.
This is really well said. I think the key parts you’ve identified are:
- being emotionally vulnerable (but not an emotional doormat!)
- not being desperate
I really struggled with emotional vulnerability, and this took time to get comfortable with, with many fails.
Being desperate is also tricky, because when you’re lonely you yearn to make contacts. I won’t lie, this part is hard, but working on yourself FIRST seems to be the key anecdotally.
Be the best version of yourself. When I say this, I mean the best “genuine” version. That means, genuinely caring, not desperate, not toxic, letting go of grudges, challenging insecurities and strong negative beliefs.
Note that “best you” does NOT mean “rich”, “powerful”, “hot and ripped”, “best dressed”, “most girlfriends” and “coolest car” …. lol
Some people think the above when they are younger, because our whole lives we are sold that that is what success looks like. Sure, to a very shallow world view it may be “success”.
But being happy, caring, genuine, and honest is much harder and much more related to success in my opinion.
I agree, trying to not be desperate when you are lonely can be a real catch 22. Gradually building up a strong circle of good friends is the main thing that gives social confidence and makes you non-desperate, but that is little help to someone that is lonely.
When I was younger I ended up being friends with some awful people (literally criminals in some cases), and even marrying someone that treated me badly, because I just didn't want to be alone.
Now I think there is a better solution when finding friends hard to come by- decide what is really important to you and make that a hard boundary, but be willing to tolerate other "flaws" in people that might also be having trouble making friends. For example, I won't be friends with someone that I think is a bad person, or treats others badly on purpose, but I will be friends with someone that has poor social skills or is neurodivergent in a way that makes them hard for others to be around, if I think they are still a good person, and am able to enjoy spending time with them, e.g. through a shared activity we both enjoy.
I found that essentially lowering my standards in a way compatible with my values expanded my circle of potential friends, without being "desperate" in the sense of having no boundaries like I did when I was younger.
I also agree that you get to define success for yourself based on your own values. It is a mistake to take the definition of success handed to you by society/others.
Not much to add to an already great comment, but I'll emphatically back the recommendation of "Models".
I read that book in my early 20s so that I could have better relationships with women, but what I got from that book were lessons on living a good and authentic life. Easily the most influential book I've ever read.
3 strikes and you're out.
I'm nearly 50 and an extrovert and I've found that healthy and fulfilling relations are a function of reciprocity.
I'm willing to engage with someone 3x and see if they'll reciprocate. If not, I move on--no hard feelings, just realizing it's not a mutual fit.
This rule has served me immensely well in my friends. As a result, I have nearly no loose friends--just very tight, reliable connections.
I think this is a good rule to live by that I should incorporate. I fear that energy I spend on people who just aren’t into me will leave me bitter and reluctant to spend that energy on others, which will have compounding effects as I get later into life. Giving myself a firm limit of energy spent will help ensure it persists longer.
I don’t have many friends. But I have very deep connections with few people, and it’s getting better as I get older. I’m still under 30. Most of my friends are nearing 50.
Anecdotally, know yourself. And make an effort. Cast your nets deep, not wide. Have morals, have ideas, have grounding principals. Principals that are malleable over time and experience. It helps to have a “North Star” in life.
I live by: Live very simply, be genuine, be honest no matter what, love deeply.
Have “strong opinions held loosely”. Don’t have shallow insights, be educated, read deeply, learn deeply.
Don’t be a sheep. That is the default most boring state in the world. It makes for boring people and interactions. Question that status quo. But don’t do it just because a person on the internet said, see how it relates to your principles.
I’ve lost a lot of friends over the years, it happens, many times was due to how I was as a person at the time.
But learning from my partner has made me a more principled person, comfortable in my own skin now.
I have a very small amount of close relationships with friends, and they are relationships not bound by time or upkeep or location.
We mostly catch up when we can a few times a year, and have deep life discussions and catching up on their life. It helps that they are genuinely some of the smartest people I’ve ever met.
I facilitate a lot of the meetups. I’ve learnt to be okay with this, I people have busy lives. Younger me used to take this personally, and think “why do I have to do everything”, but that’s just my role, and the relationships are worth the effort.
I say this from experience, most interactions with people are very shallow. I think people shy away from connections as there is a world full of potential connections. Analysis paralysis and perfection.
So you just have to be the bigger person and make the effort, but you also have to determine whether a person is worth making an effort for.
To answer that question, look for people that are:
- not materialistic; genuine; caring; kind; honest to a fault; living life
The thing I always remind myself on this topic is from Dale Carengie's How to Win Friends and Influence People which is essentially you will make an order of magnitude more friends by being interested in other people than you will in trying to make them interested in you
The problem is that this advice is missing one piece of crucial information - first impressions are everything.
Imagine you start a job, and you meet a coworker, who is well groomed, well spoken, and he just starts small chat with you, doing all the strategies in the book of "building you up". You would probably feel good.
Now imagine the same situation except you have a coworker who is socially awkward and speaks in a monotone voice, doesn't do small chat, and right away starts asking very probing questions. You would probably be annoyed as fuck.
This is good advice for salespeople who need to strike up a rapport in a short amount of time. Real adult friendships are far more complicated due to the time investment required to actually build a friendship.
To add to this, adult relationships are shades of shared adversity, reciprocity, vulnerability, and demonstrating reliability. Avoid transactional behavior, put yourself out there, accept losses but be present in the positive moments.
> I’ll invite an acquaintance to get a coffee or beer with me a few times but never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang.
This is a great start! You’re already doing what most people find the hardest: making the first move.
Grabbing coffee, and even going out to dinner, aren’t good activities for making deep connections. They’re too short and too routine. They can work, it’ll just take longer, and you will have to work harder to make sure conversation is meaningful.
I think the best way to make real friendships is to go on a weekend trip somewhere together. First of all, you’re spending days together instead of hours, but more importantly, you’ll have a shared experience to remember. You get to see what someone is like not only during activities and meals, but also during downtime.
Weekend trips could be awkward if it’s just one on one though, so if you don’t have a group, the next best thing is doing an activity together. Figure out a shared interest, then invite your new friend to do something you’d both enjoy. Maybe it’s a concert, talk, hike, whatever. Do that a few times and your new friend will associate you with that activity. Next time they’re going to a concert/talk/hike or whatever, they’ll invite you to tag along.
thanks chatgpt!
I'm one of the people you might invite. I'm an introvert and I don't think to include others in my plans. When I think about it now, I mostly assume they wouldn't want to.
I will accept almost every social engagement with people I like, though.
So: maybe it's not you.
I’m in a weird state where at 30 years old we (together with my wife) lost our whole social circle and had to start anew. It’s hard. What I realized that many people who are 30+ already have their social group they’re content with and are not interested in expanding it, at least not initially.
What we tried to do was basically inviting all our neighbors over, always being nice without trying too hard. At first some would not even say hello back. After a while we developed relationships that are not very deep yet, but we’re getting somewhere. It takes time, a lot of time.
What I would suggest is that you try many different people (neighbors, fellow parents from school, work colleagues) if one relationship doesn’t pan out. Eventually you’ll find someone with whom you will “click”. For me the best relationships I got was with the former work colleagues, we just kept in touch and hanged out after work.
When I have trouble diagnosing something, I reach into literature for clues. Your post reminded me about this paper from 2016, reading it might prove to be helpful for you.
>Are You Your Friends’ Friend? Poor Perception of Friendship Ties Limits the Ability to Promote Behavioral Change
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
I’m currently reading this book called “Supercommunicators” and while I’m not done with it, there are some ideas there that really resonate.
One of them is that this kind of people are generally in the minds of their friends/acquaintances. And one of the reasons there is that they see them as very good listeners during conversations. They match their conversation style, they confirm what they’ve been talking about with feedback and this sort of behaviour that tend to help people build trust and friendships.
I’m not done with the book yet, but I can see many things relating to what I generally practice. And I’ve got good friends :)
Interesting, thanks for the rec. I’ll seek this book out
(1) Live and Speak Honestly
(2) Be Childlike in your approach to life and relationships
(1) Honest Living
If your boring (and I don't know if you are), its probably because you stopped pursuing things that you wanted and excited you for something safe. Boring people also mask their emotions when speaking to people to avoid rejection.
To find people you genuinely connect with, you need to express yourself fully. Honest expressions will make you more polarizing, and you will experience rejection. But the people you connect with will be much deeper because they see who you actually are.
Honest living usually means some therapy or self reflection to identify the things in your life you stopped purusing. A simple litmus test: you are in a social situation and see a person you find attractive. Do you make excuses for not talking to them or go and talk to them, openly stating your interest?
(2) Childlike
Children play until they get hurt or get in trouble. Do you approach relationships with this attitude? Is your heart open to loving other people even if it hurts and they reject you?
For my specific situation, these are some profound questions and ways to frame my outlook. Thanks for your wisdom.
Relationships - in the work setting - stem from building trust that you can do your job/deliver as promised, and how your actions impact the careers of others.
A colleague might be a fun character telling stories over a beer but also professionally useless.
If a colleague invited me out for a coffee - and we didn't really know each other in the office - I would be suspicious as to their motive.
Recognizing that friendships are important. It's easy when younger to take them for granted. Easy come, easy go (even when not easy come). That's profoundly mistaken. Friendships of all kinds are important and deserve a deliberate approach.
I think not taking it personally that somebody doesn't ring you back is a good start. People are busy, as you get older you have more responsibilities than you have time, so whatever you can eke out is for people who're already in your circles.
For gelling with new people and bringing them into your own circle, it's good to understand that it's a numbers game too. Figuring out social groups that you enjoy should always be the main goal. I have real life friends who love climbing, and we already budgeted time for climbing, so we usually hang out before or after a session and it hits all the same. Similarly, online friends who like building video games like me can sometimes spare the time to play or develop together.
Increasing your surface area in this way is a great way to start! As you get acquainted with more people, the chances that you have at least one person to hang out with at any time increases greatly, and in turn that they will want to hang out with you.
1. You're not a 100 dollar bill to be liked by everyone that you like. While worrying about it is in itself a repellent.
2. You may actually be full of sh.t (nobody's perfect). Only life and rarely a very close true friend can give you proper hints (or lessons which are often quite expensive, but that is what builds your character and makes you you in the end).
> never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang
Many people don't think twice about friendships (of any kind). It's them.
You are not their top of the list attraction (of any kind). It's you.
But then too, when you are lucky enough to find someone who really clicks with you, do ask them to critique your approach. Sadly in many cultures including the US, this is just "not done". Not considered appropriate. Even when you ask. That's so sad. No wonder we are lonely.
Maybe somewhat tangential, but for maintaining relationships (close or distant) in general, the best things for me (who am still learning) have been a study of the Bible and Book of Mormon, and some things they said in our church's General Conference, which I will try to roughly quote from memory:
"Never let a task to be accomplished be more important than a person to be loved."
"The primary feeling in any interaction should be love."
"Observe and serve."
This does not mean failure to speak only truth in kindness as appropriate, or to set boundaries when necessary. I think Jesus Christ's example of understanding, truth, and kindness are ideal for us all.
Also as some have hinted here, being a good listener, asking questions, caring about others' background and well-being in general, being humble, willing to share when appropriate, and looking for the good and things to appreciate in others, and ways to serve, can go a long way. Interesting volunteering opportunities (where you would meet people as a side-effect) might be found at https://justserve.org if available in your area.
You ask directly - the very questions you outlined.
You have to risk the relationship - the very thoughts you fear, the thoughts "Oh, I could never ask that, they'll hate me."
Those thoughts. You have to voice them.
It's the only way to maintain intimacy and reveal who you truly are.
I can't speak for women, but for men it's tough to make friends.
We tend to not get personal and if you don't have deeper more meaningful conversations with someone you can't really become "friends."
I've only had a few friends my entire life and I've lost most of them.
Too many factors to possibly diagnose if “it’s you”, or even if there is something “to fix”.
Anecdotally, I desire to hang out with people who share my interests and want to do similar activities that we both enjoy.
I’m a few years removed from college now, and it’s highlighted to me just how special living closely with people of similar age and interest does for one’s social life. Once you spread out, gain dependents, work, etc… it’s much more of an effort to stay in touch.
Just because someone doesn’t reciprocate your effort to connect doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t want to hang out with you.
Take a lesson from alcohol (but don't drink).
Disinhibition is a social lubricant. We are so used to being safe because that's what the workplace requires, that we've lost the ability to be disinhibited around closer relationships. People who can be disinhibited and show their flaws are really attractive. But it doesn't come free, some people will reject you more. And that's ok.
but never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang.
Treating relationsips non-transactionally, helped me. Sure, sometimes I might feel a bit disappointed. That's a hazard of para-social thinking. Relationships have asymmetries. Hence the friendship paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox
Maybe I’m a boring person?
Well half of all people are more boring than average...But mostly adult lives are complex. You probably don't rate as highly as someone's child, partner, or established social circle. These are long term relationships. Good luck.
Some people are just like that (I know I am sometimes). Don't take it personally.
Rather than try to change how that person responds to you, you can either work on being ok with how little they initiate, or you can put effort into other (or finding new) relationships where people will initiate more.
People also go through busy and less busy times - so maybe try again with this person in 6 months and see if things are different.
There are so many different kinds of people (with so many different preferences), that I really think your time is better spent finding new people that you click more with, rather than trying to change yourself.
R.A.D.A.R. or structured communication. This is the idea that difficult and "we need to talk" kinds of topics should not be addressed when "hot" but when the circumstances are at their best; and that deliberate time with best circumstances should be created deliberately; and that some topics that rarely get time to be discussed should get time. This is a profound idea. ... and for me so far it has had minimal result. In part because of a partner weaponizing EVEN these deliberately perfect circumstances! Le sigh.
Trying to make convo circumstances and process perfect cannot solve mental issues or deeply ingrained habbits. Not quickly anyway, perhaps not at all. But for damn sure, it's thinking in the right direction!
I am currently wanting to apply this "even" to friendships but run into the issue that people "don't have time".
Personally, I think this has to do with not being very good at making friends when I was younger.
> How do you fix something like this if you can’t diagnose what’s wrong?
You don't "fix" it, you just fine-tune your behavior models.
Make of yourself something that people need and/or want (which is often something they'll eventually outright signal that they're missing). Don't make yourself dependable, but desirable.
Empathy and compassion are fickle resources because if you are superficial about expressing them, people will notice.
Sound advice and expertise are nice but limited in scope and frequency, and require some reputation and trust building.
In most informal contexts most people are prone to oversharing to a keen ear. So become an active listener, pretend to be genuinely interested (but not necessarily empathic) about people's experiences and throw in something relatable to them on the way, pretend to be more stupid than them, grease their egos while playing an innocent contrarian, and eventually they'll think you're a great person and invite you to their secret boring, pretentious and utterly tasteless wine drinking clubs. If that's what you want then you win.
Ruthless grounded selection
Can you expound on this a bit? It seems that it’s realistically pursuing relationships that only seem as if they are moving in a reciprocal direction, otherwise move on as quickly as possible.
I can try! Your example is fairly generous. There are several reasons, some are less appropriate for a forum like this.
It's not so much reciprocity... but, some sort of personal investment. If I don't think someone is fully into "$thing", then I'll save the spot for someone who is. There are shades to relationships, most of mine have not been great. It's a defense mechanism - I know I'm not the target.
I don't recommend any of this, really. Just to make considerations. I'm closer with some of my coworkers than most of my family, yet I'm not that keen. Most of the time, at least. It's strange. Incredibly dynamic.
I would benefit greatly from more people like you who actually do make an effort. Yet, I'd disappoint you and feel terrible about it. I think I'm always prepared for things to go south, expecting it - perhaps causing it.
Just like any relationship, some click and some don’t.
People are busy and don’t think about others most of the time. Most live in their own world.
If they get an invite, they’ll often be happy to mix things up and meet. Then most go back to their normal routine.
Give off relaxed and breezy vibes. It’s easy to sense when someone is trying too hard. Most don’t want an another obligation in life, so they don’t want another thing they need to be bothered by. However, a friend that is casual works out better.
Amount of time between hanging out has naturally gotten further apart. Allow yourself to be okay with this aspect.
Don’t take things personally. Be your natural and genuine self.
Good luck!
I’m on the receiving end of this behavior, and even if I’m probably not representative of what’s happening to you, I will bring my data point anyway.
There are quite a non-trivial number of people who reach out to me (mostly old friends/coworkers), with whom I wouldn’t want to engage. There are multiple reasons, but it fundamentally always boils down to any social interaction with them being an opportunity for them to compare themselves with me, and making me feel inferior, by explicit comments or by some sort of virtue signaling. I’m not even sure they realize it, and it’s also possible it’s just in my head. Regardless, that’s how I feel.
I am not a complete sociopath, so just declaring upfront that I do not desire to meet with them is bad taste in my morals, so I simply ruthlessly decline every single invitation, until they get the point and stop reaching out. It’s puzzling to me how sometimes a person might reach out for YEARS before giving up (on a perhaps 2-3 month basis for 2-3 years), asking for a call or to meet up, and me every time shutting them down with “I’m busy”, “I’m traveling”, etc.
Make no mistake, if I were to “cave in” and meet them up, it would immediately be an opportunity for them to flaunt their financial/marital/career/athletic success in front of me, by comparing themselves to me, so no, no pity. Example: a “friend” who made $20M from an extremely lucky IPO had the nerve to tell me “why don’t you just pick a good company that’s going to IPO soon and make a lot of money like me? A couple years and then you’re done, it’s easy”. No shit lol. This is a person who insisted for YEARS to meet up, after I started the process of declining any invitation. Fortunately he seems to have moved on now, but never say never.
It seems surprising to me that you are saying you have this issue with a lot of people, when I find this type of behavior to be fairly rare- although I agree it can be really obnoxious when it happens. I could be wrong about this, but is it possible that you are the one doing the comparing, and not them?
Do you feel that you are doing how you want in life, or that you aren't successful enough, and feel triggered or self conscious about other people doing well in general?
For example with the person you mentioned, why don't you get involved with a high risk high reward startup? I know for me, I am a parent so my financial risk tolerance is too low for that, and I'm more driven by intellectual freedom and working on specific things I am interested in rather than trying to get rich quick. I also personally enjoy simple living, and already live exactly how I want to live- I wouldn't choose to change my lifestyle with more money in the bank, so what would be the point? It's just not something I want to do, but I don't mind if a friend does and it pays out for them!
I want all of my friends to really thrive, and don't see life as a competition or zero-sum game. If someone is doing better than me at something, that is one less thing for us as a team to worry about- and maybe it will give them the time, energy, or wisdom to also help me to thrive more. I want to hear everything I can about how well they are doing, really celebrate it with them, and will be open to advice on how I might do the same. Personally, my main hobby is sailing, and most of my sailing friends are much much wealthier than I am. This doesn't really bother me, because I made choices in life that don't really lead to that kind of wealth- based on my own priorities, but I feel I am successful based on what I actually want out of life.
I really really don't want to be a person that has a crab in the bucket mentality - so consciously aim to be someone that isn't like that, and can enjoy other peoples success.
> but is it possible that you are the one doing the comparing, and not them?
> Do you feel that you are doing how you want in life, or that you aren't successful enough, and feel triggered or self conscious about other people doing well in general?
I have asked myself these questions many times, and I do think I have been fairly exhaustive in my introspection.
I genuinely think that a good number of people who reach out to me do so purely to lift themselves up, by comparing themselves with me on certain dimensions.
I am never the person initiating extremely violating questions such as: “How much do you make? How big is your house? Which neighborhood do you live in? Do you own or rent? How much can you squat? Based on your years of experience, your net worth should be in this ballpark, am I correct?” Etc etc.
No, I do not compare myself to others, I genuinely wouldn’t want what they have, in the dimensions that they are comparing themselves with me.
Could I be a person of extreme virtue and continue interacting with these people? Of course I could, but why should I, if it makes me unhappy? I am happy not to interact with them, there is nothing I need to change.
I have several relationships that work exactly like what you described (especially family, significant other, childhood friends), and I cherish those.
Actively and deliberately maintain contact and communication. Result? Marginal. Yes, I feel it has helped but only a little, at the margin.
I think I have some advice for you but I should clarify something first. Do your acquaintances agree to hang out when you invite them?
Probably less than 50% of the time. So I’m in the “mostly rejected” category.
Less than 50% can be 45%.
If people agree to hang out with you 45% of the time, that's really great.
Most of my circle is busy enough that my personal rate is somewhere between 20% and 30%.
Try giving people a longer notice. Like maybe a full week instead of a couple of days. This should help them fit you into their schedule. People are just really busy these days.
It's not your fault.