Always interesting to see how different countries look at plates. Different colors front and back, different models for taxis (e.g. The Netherlands), EVs (many US states, and as per the article, the UK), and how they monetize them.
Not to mention whether you need one in the front or not...
I'm from Belgium they require front and back (same color), and which until ~10 years ago didn't allow customized plates. And then they allowed limited customization (9-abc-###), followed by full customization. Prices when they came out was 1,000 Euros (all things that make a car fun are taxes), went up to 2,000 Euros, and then they dropped it as demand stopped. They also make the owner of the car responsible for any tickets issued by the cops.
Compare that to living in Arizona. One plate, on the back. A gazillion options. Vanity plate? Free. Cops can only give you a ticket when they pull you over. (Except Scottsdale).
Almost as crazy as not wanting your DNA or biometrics in government databases, amirite?
The arguments haven't changed much either. Here's "you have nothing to hide if you're not breaking the law":
> “Numbering would be an advantage to motorists who were gentlemen and drove with consideration, as it would show that they were not driving in such a way as to make them ashamed of identification”.
But this one was prescient: “It will be easy to get restrictions passed, but to remove them is the work of a lifetime,”
I wonder if they sensed that at some point number plates would be automatically recorded wherever you drive, even when not causing an accident or doing anything illegal.
Just a funny coincidence or is there some connection?: OP writes that legislation started 1 January 1904, which happens to be the time epoch in the classic Mac OS, which was released in 1984 with the well-known 1984-styled commercial.
Because the argument that if you aren't breaking the law you shouldn't be afraid isn't a bad argument in itself. Nobody wants to go back to a time where you could kill ten people, move one town over, change your name, and you're off the hook.
The problem is when these schemes are abused, so we always need to weigh the benefits we get from identification/tracking against the possibility of abuse.
In 2024, abuse is pervasive with the widespread deployment of ANPR.
I'd really love to see some state start offering privacy plates based on e-ink that rotate numbers every few minutes. And split authority with an audit log for when the privacy needs to be broken of course.
>Almost as crazy as not wanting your DNA or biometrics in government databases, amirite?
Not really :) Biometrics being known, at least in the US, has the potential of Insurance Companies denying health coverage based upon what they see in your genes. Right now that is illegal.
Number plates on Autos only drawback is you being located after a hit-and-run and other such acts.
Maybe insurance companies with a good network of plate readers decide to increase your premiums because you park in a neighborhood known for auto break-ins. Or they deny you entirely because your commute takes you on a windy road known to have a +30% accident rate.
>Maybe insurance companies with a good network of plate readers decide to increase your premiums because you park in a neighborhood known for auto break-ins
This already happens, it is based upon your Zip Code in the State I am in
>Or they deny you entirely because your commute takes you on a windy road known to have a +30% accident rate.
This is interesting and a possibility, plus maybe the can track your speed too.
> "... it would lead the public to believe that a man who prefers to use a vehicle propelled by an engine to one drawn by a horse is, in the eyes of the authorities, a person who is likely to misconduct himself.
i think someone adeptly riding through town on a horse is a lot more likely to... stirrup trouble
What I find amusing is the "sovereign citizens" going to all the trouble to make their own plates, filled with their usual prevarications like "traveling, not driving". If they were truly sovereign, they wouldn't have a plate at all.
(From what I can tell, King Charles does not have a plate on his Range Rover when it's being used for official purposes, with his standard mounted on it. But does on his household vehicles)
Hey, one of the latest imports from the US to France.
We had the case of two sovereign citizens stopped by the police who was dumbfounded when these people were constantly saying that they "do not contract with the enterprise French republic" (the sentence does not make grammatical sense in French).
After what they were brought in for interrogation (and I think a psychiatric evaluation). The trial is planned for April because their house burned down and they need to apply for the state subsidiaries (the last part is a joke :))
The Sovereign Citizen crowd are indeed nuts. When I was a law student I spent some time when learning how to do legal research practicing by thoroughly debunking Sovereign Citizen claims on Usenet, and continued to do that after I had mastered legal research and no longer needed extra outside practice. As a result I've seen pretty much all of their arguments.
Their inability to understand basic logic and the breadth and depth of their ignorance of history was astounding. It was only exceeded by their inability to understand even the simplest aspects of how the legal system works--they often for example cited documents as being decisions of a court when in fact the document was a brief from the losing side stating the argument that the court had found to be incorrect.
So what I find amusing is that in the particular situation you brought up they have out-reasoned you. :-) It is one of the few situations where they are actually taking a rational approach.
If someone actually believes that they are truly sovereign and not subject to the license plate rules it is in fact rational for them to put fake plates on their cars when driving through an area where the police will harass them over a lack of plates. Even if they were right and that harassment is not actually legal it is still a pain in the ass to deal with and a fake plate might prevent it.
While I wouldn’t have thought of it I can see their point. The surveillance we have today is predicated on the surveillance implemented in that past and of I feel outraged today they must have felt similar or greater outrage.
It is a reminder of just how much has been normalized and how much there is left to do.
OMG, this is surveillance society, i want to be able to run over anything and not be held accountable, such restriction of my liberty and privacy is unbearable /s
Always interesting to see how different countries look at plates. Different colors front and back, different models for taxis (e.g. The Netherlands), EVs (many US states, and as per the article, the UK), and how they monetize them.
Not to mention whether you need one in the front or not...
I'm from Belgium they require front and back (same color), and which until ~10 years ago didn't allow customized plates. And then they allowed limited customization (9-abc-###), followed by full customization. Prices when they came out was 1,000 Euros (all things that make a car fun are taxes), went up to 2,000 Euros, and then they dropped it as demand stopped. They also make the owner of the car responsible for any tickets issued by the cops.
Compare that to living in Arizona. One plate, on the back. A gazillion options. Vanity plate? Free. Cops can only give you a ticket when they pull you over. (Except Scottsdale).
This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Makes me wonder what today's opinions will sound like, a century hence.
Almost as crazy as not wanting your DNA or biometrics in government databases, amirite?
The arguments haven't changed much either. Here's "you have nothing to hide if you're not breaking the law":
> “Numbering would be an advantage to motorists who were gentlemen and drove with consideration, as it would show that they were not driving in such a way as to make them ashamed of identification”.
But this one was prescient: “It will be easy to get restrictions passed, but to remove them is the work of a lifetime,”
I wonder if they sensed that at some point number plates would be automatically recorded wherever you drive, even when not causing an accident or doing anything illegal.
Just a funny coincidence or is there some connection?: OP writes that legislation started 1 January 1904, which happens to be the time epoch in the classic Mac OS, which was released in 1984 with the well-known 1984-styled commercial.
Because the argument that if you aren't breaking the law you shouldn't be afraid isn't a bad argument in itself. Nobody wants to go back to a time where you could kill ten people, move one town over, change your name, and you're off the hook.
The problem is when these schemes are abused, so we always need to weigh the benefits we get from identification/tracking against the possibility of abuse.
In 2024, abuse is pervasive with the widespread deployment of ANPR.
I'd really love to see some state start offering privacy plates based on e-ink that rotate numbers every few minutes. And split authority with an audit log for when the privacy needs to be broken of course.
>Almost as crazy as not wanting your DNA or biometrics in government databases, amirite?
Not really :) Biometrics being known, at least in the US, has the potential of Insurance Companies denying health coverage based upon what they see in your genes. Right now that is illegal.
Number plates on Autos only drawback is you being located after a hit-and-run and other such acts.
Maybe insurance companies with a good network of plate readers decide to increase your premiums because you park in a neighborhood known for auto break-ins. Or they deny you entirely because your commute takes you on a windy road known to have a +30% accident rate.
>Maybe insurance companies with a good network of plate readers decide to increase your premiums because you park in a neighborhood known for auto break-ins
This already happens, it is based upon your Zip Code in the State I am in
>Or they deny you entirely because your commute takes you on a windy road known to have a +30% accident rate.
This is interesting and a possibility, plus maybe the can track your speed too.
> "... it would lead the public to believe that a man who prefers to use a vehicle propelled by an engine to one drawn by a horse is, in the eyes of the authorities, a person who is likely to misconduct himself.
i think someone adeptly riding through town on a horse is a lot more likely to... stirrup trouble
Lots of folks not onboard with the idea of registrations plates in NYC too. I see plenty of folks with fake or expired paper plates going around.
What I find amusing is the "sovereign citizens" going to all the trouble to make their own plates, filled with their usual prevarications like "traveling, not driving". If they were truly sovereign, they wouldn't have a plate at all.
(From what I can tell, King Charles does not have a plate on his Range Rover when it's being used for official purposes, with his standard mounted on it. But does on his household vehicles)
Hey, one of the latest imports from the US to France.
We had the case of two sovereign citizens stopped by the police who was dumbfounded when these people were constantly saying that they "do not contract with the enterprise French republic" (the sentence does not make grammatical sense in French).
After what they were brought in for interrogation (and I think a psychiatric evaluation). The trial is planned for April because their house burned down and they need to apply for the state subsidiaries (the last part is a joke :))
The Sovereign Citizen crowd are indeed nuts. When I was a law student I spent some time when learning how to do legal research practicing by thoroughly debunking Sovereign Citizen claims on Usenet, and continued to do that after I had mastered legal research and no longer needed extra outside practice. As a result I've seen pretty much all of their arguments.
Their inability to understand basic logic and the breadth and depth of their ignorance of history was astounding. It was only exceeded by their inability to understand even the simplest aspects of how the legal system works--they often for example cited documents as being decisions of a court when in fact the document was a brief from the losing side stating the argument that the court had found to be incorrect.
So what I find amusing is that in the particular situation you brought up they have out-reasoned you. :-) It is one of the few situations where they are actually taking a rational approach.
If someone actually believes that they are truly sovereign and not subject to the license plate rules it is in fact rational for them to put fake plates on their cars when driving through an area where the police will harass them over a lack of plates. Even if they were right and that harassment is not actually legal it is still a pain in the ass to deal with and a fake plate might prevent it.
While I wouldn’t have thought of it I can see their point. The surveillance we have today is predicated on the surveillance implemented in that past and of I feel outraged today they must have felt similar or greater outrage. It is a reminder of just how much has been normalized and how much there is left to do.
Do there remain any countries in the world where license plates on cars are not required?
OMG, this is surveillance society, i want to be able to run over anything and not be held accountable, such restriction of my liberty and privacy is unbearable /s
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