>I use my laptop for KiCad PCB design, compiling embedded firmware, and FPGA synthesis. None of these really use that much RAM. But if you leave tabs open in Firefox or Chrome [...]
Web browser RAM consumption is ridiculous. I recently tried ChromeOS on Intel Compute Stick with 2GB RAM (which is ostensibly a certified device supported until 2027!) and it would run out of memory and freeze within minutes of opening Chrome. Similar story on Linux+Firefox, had to set up swap+zswap to prevent it from running out of memory and locking up.
I remember that Firefox used to host areweslimyet.com for a while, tracking improvements to memory usage, this has been now migrated to TaskCluster and effectively disappeared from public view.
I remember that many years ago there was a push for the x32 ABI[0] that could, in theory, use less RAM in a 64-bit machine. I also remember that I tried to compile Chromium with this ABI enabled and there was a lot of 64-bit bit ops that prevented me from succeeding.
What happened to this effort? Does anyone more knowledgeable know?
If anyone happens to have a XPS 13 9350/60 palm rest case that isn't broken, let me now! I was very happy with the laptop until last year when the whole metal case where the hinges attach broke. Looking on eBay for a replacement part just gives me lots and lots of listings of the same part broken in the same place, or they are ridiculously priced (like $250).
To make things more complicated, I have a Nordic layout and all the parts I can find are US/UK, so realistically I'd also need a new keyboard, front cover and everything else!
Maybe I should try to just design a case for this so I can use it as some sort of home server instead. Seems wasteful to just throw it away
Same issue with a xps 15 9550. I was able to source it in alegro.pl I am on my 3rd palmrest with the hinge part breaking in different ways. I am so tired of replacing it that I decided the next time I am scrapping the laptop.
It's really unfortunate because other then that it's still a great laptop. 4k screen with touch, just enough CPU and RAM for browsing, some coding/ssh terminals and more.
I bought a StarLite Mk 5 [1] to replace the Dell laptop, and regret it so far. Battery life isn't anywhere near promised and since I primarily use the laptop sitting on a couch it's useless because of the magnetic keyboard/being a tablet. It's my own fault for buying it, I should have cancelled the order, and I don't think I can return it even if it's basically brand new unused in the box it came in.
I personally just can't be productive on a tiny 13" laptop, though perhaps a lot of people just plug in a monitor and keyboard. I much prefer the 15" XPS with more screen real-estate, upgradable memory (at least when I purchased mine) and trackpad/function keys that actually click. I get how the 13" could be nicer if you're lugging it around a lot or trying to use it on a plane, but is the 15" really that hard to carry?
Eh, I go the other direction. At this point, my laptops are mostly just "easily carried workstations" that really only plug into a monitor/dock for real use.
I do occasionally use them on the couch or in bed, but for anything productive... I don't really ever want to work with just a laptop screen (13/15/17 inch - who cares, the form factor sucks for this).
So in that case, the 13 inch machines are great because they're light and portable. Much prefer the 13 inch XPS to the 15 inch XPS. It fits in many more bags and the only real component downgrade is the GPU, which I don't really care about in a work machine anyways.
I also find - surprisingly, they tend to get better battery life, simply because they aren't powering as much screen real-estate (and are doing it without a discrete GPU).
So yes - the 15 inch really is a lot harder to carry (I own both - older gen XPS 15, new gen XPS 13). It weighs literally twice as much and requires a much larger bag.
I'm in the same boat. I've got a monster i9, always ON PC with 128gb ram, linux desktop and a 40TB nas at home. The 80% of the time I'm WFH, it's amazing.
For the other 20% time when I'm on the go, I want the smallest , sturdiest laptop I can have, with the best battery life . I've got a Dell latitude. Although Linux is just BAAAAAAD wet battery life. I can't stand windows OS though.
I'll admit, trying to find a portable 15" is why I caved in and bought the (slightly better) pre-ARM MacBooks Pro. Unfortunately, Apple acted as if you had to compromise a lot to make 15"s trully portable.
I can't remember which manufacturer it was (iirc it was either Dell or HP), but I recall a couple of engineers from that manufacturer being on a podcast saying that their DOA RMA rates dropped dramatically after switching to soldered RAM.
One compromise I've seen in laptops is to have both soldered ram and a SODIMM socket. Stock config comes with soldered ram giving the end user the ability to add more ram as required.
CAMM2 modules could / _should_ help in returning replaceable modules to laptops and keep the benefits of having the ram mounted closer to the cpu, but at the cost that its (atleast atm) only a single module, so if you were upgrading from (for example) 8gb to 16gb, you would be left with a unused 8gb module and try and sell it on the resale market.
> It's sad that we have to resort to soldering components that used to be easily replaceable
Those memory components are now operating at much, much higher frequencies than in the good old days, and need to be mounted closer and closer to the compute units to reduce latency, making soldering them the easiest way for reliably achieving those frequencies and latencies for best performance.
Especially when you look at high end (g)DDR5 frequencies for APUs and what Apple is cooking with the Mx chips. There's no way you can easily get that using DIMM slots, so soldering it is.
Yeah we used to even have memory slots on GPUs back in the '90s, but those days are long gone now and it's not all due to planned obsolescence but simply due to the performance requirements whos goalposts have moved leagues and bounds since then.
> Those memory components are now operating at much, much higher frequencies than in the good old days,
Not arguing about the latency but the chips that have been soldered in that article are operating at much, much lower frequencies than some DDR5 DIMMs you can buy to slot on a desktop mainboard supporting an Intel Raptor Lake or Ryzen 7000 series CPU.
I was talking about modern day designs with high frequency and low latency memory, not that older laptop in particular.
Plus, isn't that laptop also thinner than models with slotted RAM? If you're chasing thinness then soldered is the only way to go even if you're not yet limited by frequency/latency.
> Especially when you look at high end (g)DDR5 frequencies for APUs and what Apple is cooking with the Mx chips. There's no way you can easily get that using DIMM slots, so soldering it is.
Apple's latest M3 processors use LPDDR5-6400. There are systems with socketed memory that do DDR5-6400, so I am not sure what you are talking about. In the server space, Intel's latest Xeons support MRDIMMs at 8800MT/s, which is even faster.
Yeah, this is where Apple has an advantage. It doesnt use special RAM, but what it does do is give you more than 2 channels in a laptop (on Pro/Max/Ultra).
LPDDR5 does use less power than DDR5, but what I was specifically referring to is the claim that Apple gets higher frequencies than you could get with slotted memories. This isnt true.
Interesting. Is there any comparisons on the difference in latencies at which those memories operate? I assume Apple's memory operates at lower latency due to it being directly on the CPU package rather than in a socket on the motherboard.
They are using slower ram. You're comparing apples to oranges. Look at the performance per watt of a modern laptop compared to a desktop or server with slotted components. Performance per watt and energy efficiency goes hand in hand with tighter integration of components.
Given that it was this easy for an amateur, professional repair shops should be able to do this commercially right? So, the only thing that needs to be documented are the steps, and then this should qualify in a 'right to repair' scenario, no?
I assume that even if you're extremely good at it, it's half a day of work. So I'm not sure about the economics of it once you include labour, rent, machine expenses etc...
>So I'm not sure about the economics of it once you include labour, rent, machine expenses etc...
Especially not at western levels of wages and commerical space rental costs.
Such services might be economically feasible in places like Taiwan or China where these skills and equipment is abundant at every street corner, but if you have to pay someone in the west where these skills are specialized with high hourly wages, to do all that for your laptop, the cost could be higher than if you would flip your existing machine on the used market and add another couple of hundred bucks on top to buy a new laptop with the exact specs you need.
Honestly, I think the biggest barrier in the West is just simply access to components and consumables, especially since places like the US are so geographically spaced out. It's much cheaper to do just-in-time inventory and walk across the neighborhood to buy (say) DRAM, BGA balls, and BGA stencils, than (in the West) to have to worry about ordering and stocking them yourself.
(Trust me, I'd be learning how to do these repairs if the costs weren't almost doubled by shipping alone in the US.)
Sadly, this might be an Asian IT mall type of situation, where there’s a critical mass of easy access to equipment (especially consumables, specific “ghost shift” ICs, and custom tooling).
At least that’s what the Chinese equipment market indicates to me - not just rework equipment, but very platform specific flash reprogrammers etc.
I know people are talking about how you should buy the additional RAM upfront but sometimes either that specific variant with more RAM is not available or there is some very good sale going on but it doesn't apply to the model with more RAM, so the perceived cost of the added RAM is just too big for the desired model of the computer laptop, making it hard to go with the decision of acquiring it.
If this was a service available from repair shops, I could see people making the math and going for it sometimes.
> But next time I think I’ll just buy the 16GB variant upfront.
Get the 32GB variant: RAM is often the limiting factor for being able to still use an old machine. Now that these get soldered on, better dial it up a notch.
>RAM is often the limiting factor for being able to still use an old machine.
Is it?
I'm seriously asking because usually I crank up the RAM when I buy a new device but I'm not at all sure that's something that has benefited me as far as longevity goes.
It will only benefit you if the rest of the machine, especially the physical body is durable enough. I went with framework in the hope I will never have to be worry about that in the future. Has held up with its promises so far.
>I use my laptop for KiCad PCB design, compiling embedded firmware, and FPGA synthesis. None of these really use that much RAM. But if you leave tabs open in Firefox or Chrome [...]
Web browser RAM consumption is ridiculous. I recently tried ChromeOS on Intel Compute Stick with 2GB RAM (which is ostensibly a certified device supported until 2027!) and it would run out of memory and freeze within minutes of opening Chrome. Similar story on Linux+Firefox, had to set up swap+zswap to prevent it from running out of memory and locking up.
I remember that Firefox used to host areweslimyet.com for a while, tracking improvements to memory usage, this has been now migrated to TaskCluster and effectively disappeared from public view.
I remember that many years ago there was a push for the x32 ABI[0] that could, in theory, use less RAM in a 64-bit machine. I also remember that I tried to compile Chromium with this ABI enabled and there was a lot of 64-bit bit ops that prevented me from succeeding.
What happened to this effort? Does anyone more knowledgeable know?
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI
Doesn't userspace have access to the full ISA in the x32 ABI and the page tables are just configured to wrap at 32 bits?
Is using unallocated RAM bad? I'd rather have all my RAM utilized to save trips to disk than sit empty.
I think some engineers misunderstood "unused RAM is lost performance" as "all this RAM is mine".
Unallocated RAM is bad, but allocating multiple GBs just to display a website is just ineffecient.
Using more cache won't result in the system freezing.
If anyone happens to have a XPS 13 9350/60 palm rest case that isn't broken, let me now! I was very happy with the laptop until last year when the whole metal case where the hinges attach broke. Looking on eBay for a replacement part just gives me lots and lots of listings of the same part broken in the same place, or they are ridiculously priced (like $250).
To make things more complicated, I have a Nordic layout and all the parts I can find are US/UK, so realistically I'd also need a new keyboard, front cover and everything else!
Maybe I should try to just design a case for this so I can use it as some sort of home server instead. Seems wasteful to just throw it away
Same issue with a xps 15 9550. I was able to source it in alegro.pl I am on my 3rd palmrest with the hinge part breaking in different ways. I am so tired of replacing it that I decided the next time I am scrapping the laptop.
It's really unfortunate because other then that it's still a great laptop. 4k screen with touch, just enough CPU and RAM for browsing, some coding/ssh terminals and more.
I bought a StarLite Mk 5 [1] to replace the Dell laptop, and regret it so far. Battery life isn't anywhere near promised and since I primarily use the laptop sitting on a couch it's useless because of the magnetic keyboard/being a tablet. It's my own fault for buying it, I should have cancelled the order, and I don't think I can return it even if it's basically brand new unused in the box it came in.
[1] https://no.starlabs.systems/pages/starlite?shpxid=61ecd87f-f...
I personally just can't be productive on a tiny 13" laptop, though perhaps a lot of people just plug in a monitor and keyboard. I much prefer the 15" XPS with more screen real-estate, upgradable memory (at least when I purchased mine) and trackpad/function keys that actually click. I get how the 13" could be nicer if you're lugging it around a lot or trying to use it on a plane, but is the 15" really that hard to carry?
Eh, I go the other direction. At this point, my laptops are mostly just "easily carried workstations" that really only plug into a monitor/dock for real use.
I do occasionally use them on the couch or in bed, but for anything productive... I don't really ever want to work with just a laptop screen (13/15/17 inch - who cares, the form factor sucks for this).
So in that case, the 13 inch machines are great because they're light and portable. Much prefer the 13 inch XPS to the 15 inch XPS. It fits in many more bags and the only real component downgrade is the GPU, which I don't really care about in a work machine anyways.
I also find - surprisingly, they tend to get better battery life, simply because they aren't powering as much screen real-estate (and are doing it without a discrete GPU).
So yes - the 15 inch really is a lot harder to carry (I own both - older gen XPS 15, new gen XPS 13). It weighs literally twice as much and requires a much larger bag.
I'm in the same boat. I've got a monster i9, always ON PC with 128gb ram, linux desktop and a 40TB nas at home. The 80% of the time I'm WFH, it's amazing.
For the other 20% time when I'm on the go, I want the smallest , sturdiest laptop I can have, with the best battery life . I've got a Dell latitude. Although Linux is just BAAAAAAD wet battery life. I can't stand windows OS though.
I'll admit, trying to find a portable 15" is why I caved in and bought the (slightly better) pre-ARM MacBooks Pro. Unfortunately, Apple acted as if you had to compromise a lot to make 15"s trully portable.
Good read. It's sad that we have to resort to soldering components that used to be easily replaceable.
Side note, you all might like @dosdude1 videos:
https://www.youtube.com/@dosdude1
Lots of Mac SSD upgrades, and some vintage stuff to boot.
I can't remember which manufacturer it was (iirc it was either Dell or HP), but I recall a couple of engineers from that manufacturer being on a podcast saying that their DOA RMA rates dropped dramatically after switching to soldered RAM.
One compromise I've seen in laptops is to have both soldered ram and a SODIMM socket. Stock config comes with soldered ram giving the end user the ability to add more ram as required.
CAMM2 modules could / _should_ help in returning replaceable modules to laptops and keep the benefits of having the ram mounted closer to the cpu, but at the cost that its (atleast atm) only a single module, so if you were upgrading from (for example) 8gb to 16gb, you would be left with a unused 8gb module and try and sell it on the resale market.
it would take 4 CAMM modules to have enough memory bandwidth to match M1 Max
where are you going to put them in an appropriately thin chassis?
> It's sad that we have to resort to soldering components that used to be easily replaceable
Those memory components are now operating at much, much higher frequencies than in the good old days, and need to be mounted closer and closer to the compute units to reduce latency, making soldering them the easiest way for reliably achieving those frequencies and latencies for best performance.
Especially when you look at high end (g)DDR5 frequencies for APUs and what Apple is cooking with the Mx chips. There's no way you can easily get that using DIMM slots, so soldering it is.
Yeah we used to even have memory slots on GPUs back in the '90s, but those days are long gone now and it's not all due to planned obsolescence but simply due to the performance requirements whos goalposts have moved leagues and bounds since then.
> Those memory components are now operating at much, much higher frequencies than in the good old days,
Not arguing about the latency but the chips that have been soldered in that article are operating at much, much lower frequencies than some DDR5 DIMMs you can buy to slot on a desktop mainboard supporting an Intel Raptor Lake or Ryzen 7000 series CPU.
I was talking about modern day designs with high frequency and low latency memory, not that older laptop in particular.
Plus, isn't that laptop also thinner than models with slotted RAM? If you're chasing thinness then soldered is the only way to go even if you're not yet limited by frequency/latency.
> Especially when you look at high end (g)DDR5 frequencies for APUs and what Apple is cooking with the Mx chips. There's no way you can easily get that using DIMM slots, so soldering it is.
Apple's latest M3 processors use LPDDR5-6400. There are systems with socketed memory that do DDR5-6400, so I am not sure what you are talking about. In the server space, Intel's latest Xeons support MRDIMMs at 8800MT/s, which is even faster.
M3 Max has 8 memory channels, where are you going to put 8 SODIMM slots in a laptop?
Also LPDDR has lower power requirements than DDR
Yeah, this is where Apple has an advantage. It doesnt use special RAM, but what it does do is give you more than 2 channels in a laptop (on Pro/Max/Ultra).
LPDDR5 does use less power than DDR5, but what I was specifically referring to is the claim that Apple gets higher frequencies than you could get with slotted memories. This isnt true.
Interesting. Is there any comparisons on the difference in latencies at which those memories operate? I assume Apple's memory operates at lower latency due to it being directly on the CPU package rather than in a socket on the motherboard.
I'm not sure if Apple is able to run tighter timings with on package memory. Maybe?
The main advantage I am aware of with on package RAM is lower power consumption. Shorter traces means the memory controller PHY uses less power.
Are you saying that the RAM on my Librem 14 is slower, because I can easily upgrade it?
I never said that. Read my comment again please.
Desktops and servers are still doing just fine without soldered RAM.
They are using slower ram. You're comparing apples to oranges. Look at the performance per watt of a modern laptop compared to a desktop or server with slotted components. Performance per watt and energy efficiency goes hand in hand with tighter integration of components.
Gotta be reaaaallly careful cleaning up those BGA pads. It's so easy to rip them up when using solder wick.
Given that it was this easy for an amateur, professional repair shops should be able to do this commercially right? So, the only thing that needs to be documented are the steps, and then this should qualify in a 'right to repair' scenario, no?
I assume that even if you're extremely good at it, it's half a day of work. So I'm not sure about the economics of it once you include labour, rent, machine expenses etc...
>So I'm not sure about the economics of it once you include labour, rent, machine expenses etc...
Especially not at western levels of wages and commerical space rental costs.
Such services might be economically feasible in places like Taiwan or China where these skills and equipment is abundant at every street corner, but if you have to pay someone in the west where these skills are specialized with high hourly wages, to do all that for your laptop, the cost could be higher than if you would flip your existing machine on the used market and add another couple of hundred bucks on top to buy a new laptop with the exact specs you need.
Honestly, I think the biggest barrier in the West is just simply access to components and consumables, especially since places like the US are so geographically spaced out. It's much cheaper to do just-in-time inventory and walk across the neighborhood to buy (say) DRAM, BGA balls, and BGA stencils, than (in the West) to have to worry about ordering and stocking them yourself.
(Trust me, I'd be learning how to do these repairs if the costs weren't almost doubled by shipping alone in the US.)
You and I share very different understandings of the word “easy”.
Sadly, this might be an Asian IT mall type of situation, where there’s a critical mass of easy access to equipment (especially consumables, specific “ghost shift” ICs, and custom tooling).
At least that’s what the Chinese equipment market indicates to me - not just rework equipment, but very platform specific flash reprogrammers etc.
Easy is a stretch, but sure - question is if you have a shop with this level of skill, expertise and documentation access near you.
I do wonder if there might be a business opportunity in doing this.
On a specific model, I bet you could get the rework time down to 5 mins per machine in bulk.
And 5 minutes of technician time + the cost of 4 ram chips is much less than the price difference between the 8 and 16G machines.
Obviously to maximize profits, you probably want to change a 4G model to be a fully specced 32G model.
I know people are talking about how you should buy the additional RAM upfront but sometimes either that specific variant with more RAM is not available or there is some very good sale going on but it doesn't apply to the model with more RAM, so the perceived cost of the added RAM is just too big for the desired model of the computer laptop, making it hard to go with the decision of acquiring it.
If this was a service available from repair shops, I could see people making the math and going for it sometimes.
> But next time I think I’ll just buy the 16GB variant upfront.
Get the 32GB variant: RAM is often the limiting factor for being able to still use an old machine. Now that these get soldered on, better dial it up a notch.
>RAM is often the limiting factor for being able to still use an old machine.
Is it?
I'm seriously asking because usually I crank up the RAM when I buy a new device but I'm not at all sure that's something that has benefited me as far as longevity goes.
It will only benefit you if the rest of the machine, especially the physical body is durable enough. I went with framework in the hope I will never have to be worry about that in the future. Has held up with its promises so far.
>Is it?
Yes it is. CPU cycles are infinite, but RAM is finite so better up-spec on that.
Crank it all the way up.
Unless you're with Apple, in which case a solid 8GB should be enough for the next decade or so! /s
Who needs to run anything other than TextEdit.app anyway.
Vim
Enjoying this kind of impossible storage upgrade videos (iPad here) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAduDQAHXV4
(2021)