Anyone interested in CRPG design should really check out Tim Cain's youtube channel. He is the creator of Fallout. His channel is treasure trove of information and industry experience you won't find anywhere else.
I have avoided him and PirateSoftware for similar reasons that are hard to express. They both strike me as - I don't know, barbecue uncles? Too many stories in which they're the hero, perhaps.
Looks really comprehensive, thanks for sharing. Can't wait to dig in and add more stuff to my ever-expanding backlog. Loving all the screenshots too, something about that 90s-era pixel art is just so soulful and charming.
A discussion of that list might be interesting, since it will always be very subjective. In particular, I tried really hard to like Planescape: Torment since I like story-driven games, but I was only able to tolerate it for maybe 8 hours before I put it down and never picked it up again.
Arcanum is also interesting to be at #5, and I agree with the text of the reviews; it does such a good job of almost succeeding at so many of its ambitions that its easy to forgive how bad the rest of the game is. Kind of a "shot for the stars and landed on the moon" sort of game.
I was also mildly surprised to see Betrayal at Krondor at #16 with no mention of how the last third of the game is mediocre. I think the first 2/3 of the game would put it closer to #10.
Also somewhat surprised that the core Ultima (as opposed to Underworld) games were as low as they are and that IV ranked so far above V (even one of the reviewers for Ultima V said it was a far better game than IV).
It is further buoyed by an excellent magic system filled with strategic spells to manipulate the battlefield. It all comes together to make one of the best combat systems ever in an RPG.
I'm sorry, has this person even played BaK? It's a tour-de-force as an RPG, but the combat is by far one of the weakest aspects of the game. There's nearly zero advantage to using long-range weapons (e.g. crossbows). If they'd made it so hitting with a bolt have a percentile chance to cause an enemy to limp (temporarily slowed) then that would at least be something. There's almost never a reason to use a crossbow versus a standard attack particularly since this game doesn't have any concept of "attack of opportunity".
Spells like Despair Thy Eyes, Grief of 1000 Nights, Skin of the Dragon are totally broken. Spells that shouldn't affect elementals / undead / etc. work regardless, etc.
The game goes to the trouble of overlaying a grid for precise movement but positioning (with the exception of sticking Owen in a corner to avoid having him be surrounded) is almost irrelevant. There's no flanking, physically longer weapons like polearms, backstabbing, etc etc.
I do not own this book, but I do own another book published by Bitmap Books, and I can say the product quality is significantly higher than I expected for a $50 book (which was my main worry when I ordered it).
This and 'The Games That Weren't' [1] are my favorite coffee table books. Like another commenter, I tend to just open to a random page and it's always a great tidbit of learning about gaming's history.
Have the printed version of the CRPG book. It's great.
https://if50.textories.com/ is another really good one that dives into the early days of game design. The story around The Hobbit is a great example of emergent gameplay.
Why’s the link to the hardcover book say it’s coming soon, on Nov 11 2024? Will that be another edition with the minor updates mentioned in the post? This 2023 post says the edition linked in it had already been in print for two months, is why I ask—evidently there’s another print run a few weeks from now, and I’m wondering if it’s identical to the prior one(s), or features the (minor) improvements.
Super happy to see Betrayal at Krondor get a mention in the book. It was one of my favorite games as a kid, and the deft writing is arguably unsurpassed in the RPG world. The music is just absolutely perfect, too.
The only real weakness this game had was how easy it was to completely break the combat system. Skin of the Dragon is the most OP spell in the world. It's basically invulnerability for X rounds. And when I say invulnerability, I don't just mean physical attacks, but also magic, status effects—basically everything. It's cheap enough from a mana perspective to just have Owen quickly throw it on all your party members at the beginning of any combat situation.
Did I mention you can pick up the spell for free near the beginning of the game? I used to deliberately avoid it just to help balance things a bit.
They are pure JRPG's, you are true. But them some ports of Ultima 3 for the GB and some early Final Fantasy games got the concepts really blurred, kinda between CRPG's and JRPG's.
Anyone interested in CRPG design should really check out Tim Cain's youtube channel. He is the creator of Fallout. His channel is treasure trove of information and industry experience you won't find anywhere else.
https://www.youtube.com/@CainOnGames/videos
I have avoided him and PirateSoftware for similar reasons that are hard to express. They both strike me as - I don't know, barbecue uncles? Too many stories in which they're the hero, perhaps.
100%. I find a good bit of his wisdom is broadly useful, at least in software development, and not just game dev.
It's a beautiful coffee table book, I love opening a page randomly and (re)discovering a game.
If you're more into JRPGs, Bitmap Books has got you covered as well [1]:
[1]: https://www.bitmapbooks.com/products/a-guide-to-japanese-rol...
> It's a beautiful coffee table book, I love opening a page randomly and (re)discovering a game.
It is also a beautiful coffee table book in the sense that you can use it as a coffee table :-P - the thing is heavy and huge.
I bought the Bitmap Brothers release way back when and it also came with a bunch of goodies. Though the book's size does make it a bit unwieldy.
On JRPG's, once you played Chrono Trigger, Persona, Earthbound and Pokémon, you played them all.
Looks really comprehensive, thanks for sharing. Can't wait to dig in and add more stuff to my ever-expanding backlog. Loving all the screenshots too, something about that 90s-era pixel art is just so soulful and charming.
TFA links to a "best of:" https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453
A discussion of that list might be interesting, since it will always be very subjective. In particular, I tried really hard to like Planescape: Torment since I like story-driven games, but I was only able to tolerate it for maybe 8 hours before I put it down and never picked it up again.
Arcanum is also interesting to be at #5, and I agree with the text of the reviews; it does such a good job of almost succeeding at so many of its ambitions that its easy to forgive how bad the rest of the game is. Kind of a "shot for the stars and landed on the moon" sort of game.
I was also mildly surprised to see Betrayal at Krondor at #16 with no mention of how the last third of the game is mediocre. I think the first 2/3 of the game would put it closer to #10.
Also somewhat surprised that the core Ultima (as opposed to Underworld) games were as low as they are and that IV ranked so far above V (even one of the reviewers for Ultima V said it was a far better game than IV).
Also that entire review is suspect.
It is further buoyed by an excellent magic system filled with strategic spells to manipulate the battlefield. It all comes together to make one of the best combat systems ever in an RPG.
I'm sorry, has this person even played BaK? It's a tour-de-force as an RPG, but the combat is by far one of the weakest aspects of the game. There's nearly zero advantage to using long-range weapons (e.g. crossbows). If they'd made it so hitting with a bolt have a percentile chance to cause an enemy to limp (temporarily slowed) then that would at least be something. There's almost never a reason to use a crossbow versus a standard attack particularly since this game doesn't have any concept of "attack of opportunity".
Spells like Despair Thy Eyes, Grief of 1000 Nights, Skin of the Dragon are totally broken. Spells that shouldn't affect elementals / undead / etc. work regardless, etc.
The game goes to the trouble of overlaying a grid for precise movement but positioning (with the exception of sticking Owen in a corner to avoid having him be surrounded) is almost irrelevant. There's no flanking, physically longer weapons like polearms, backstabbing, etc etc.
I do not own this book, but I do own another book published by Bitmap Books, and I can say the product quality is significantly higher than I expected for a $50 book (which was my main worry when I ordered it).
This and 'The Games That Weren't' [1] are my favorite coffee table books. Like another commenter, I tend to just open to a random page and it's always a great tidbit of learning about gaming's history.
[1]: https://www.bitmapbooks.com/collections/all-books/products/t...
My first HN post, in 2017 :) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14145252
Thanks! Macroexpanded:
The CRPG Book Project: Three Years Later - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28496882 - Sept 2021 (10 comments)
CRPG Book Released - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16308136 - Feb 2018 (61 comments)
The History of Computer RPGs - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14145252 - April 2017 (91 comments)
This looks fantastic. Can't wait to get a printed version.
Anybody have further suggestions for books about games I should own?
Have the printed version of the CRPG book. It's great.
https://if50.textories.com/ is another really good one that dives into the early days of game design. The story around The Hobbit is a great example of emergent gameplay.
50 Years of Text Games is an excellent book
Bitmap Books has many beautiful books on games, you’d have to browse their catalog.
I liked The Secret History of Mac Games myself. But might not be interesting to you if you didn’t own a Mac when young.
https://www.bitmapbooks.com/products/the-secret-history-of-m...
I was expecting this to be related to the CRPG Addict
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/
More on The Last Update (2023) https://crpgbook.wordpress.com/2023/10/23/update-31-the-last...
Why’s the link to the hardcover book say it’s coming soon, on Nov 11 2024? Will that be another edition with the minor updates mentioned in the post? This 2023 post says the edition linked in it had already been in print for two months, is why I ask—evidently there’s another print run a few weeks from now, and I’m wondering if it’s identical to the prior one(s), or features the (minor) improvements.
First sentence of the book needs some editing:
"When thinking about where a book dedicated to computer RPGs might come from, one might Germany, Canada, UK or the US."
Beautiful stuff, glad to see that Underrail also made it into the book. Underrail is probably the best Fallout-like game.
Super happy to see Betrayal at Krondor get a mention in the book. It was one of my favorite games as a kid, and the deft writing is arguably unsurpassed in the RPG world. The music is just absolutely perfect, too.
The only real weakness this game had was how easy it was to completely break the combat system. Skin of the Dragon is the most OP spell in the world. It's basically invulnerability for X rounds. And when I say invulnerability, I don't just mean physical attacks, but also magic, status effects—basically everything. It's cheap enough from a mana perspective to just have Owen quickly throw it on all your party members at the beginning of any combat situation.
Did I mention you can pick up the spell for free near the beginning of the game? I used to deliberately avoid it just to help balance things a bit.
I have this book; it's a great book for enthusiasts.
I own a physical copy. Great book.
Their definition of CRPG seems really broad. I have never seen handheld games like pokemon included in that.
They are pure JRPG's, you are true. But them some ports of Ultima 3 for the GB and some early Final Fantasy games got the concepts really blurred, kinda between CRPG's and JRPG's.